>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, LIFE SUPPORT FOR A HIGH PROFILE BILL, GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM SAYS HER PUSH TO HOLD MORE PEOPLE IN JAIL BEFORE  TRIAL ISN'T DEAD YET.

>> Governor: I THINK IT  DOESN'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THE FEDERAL STANDARD WHICH IS WHAT  I INTRODUCED BUT STAY TUNED BECAUSE I THINK WE MIGHT HAVE  ANOTHER PATH FORWARD.

>> Lou: AND A LIST OF NAMES  AND CONFLICTING TIMELINES.

TWO JOURNALISTS EXPLAIN WHAT  WE KNOW AND WHAT WE DON'T TWO WEEKS AFTER NEWS BROKE ABOUT  THE FBI CORRUPTION INVESTIGATION OF THE  ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT'S DWI UNIT.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

WE ARE STILL WORKING TO GET OUR ARMS AROUND NEWS OF A  FEDERAL INVESTIGATION OF ALLEGED CORRUPTION IN THE  ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT'S DWI UNIT.

SINCE THE STORY BROKE TWO WEEKS AGO, THERE HAS BEEN  PLENTY OF SPECULATION AND LOTS OF DOT CONNECTING BUT FEW  CLEAR ANSWERS FROM OFFICIAL SOURCES.

IN ABOUT 30 MINUTES EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SITS  DOWN WITH ALBUQUERQUE JOURNALIST MATTHEW REISEN AND  ELISE KAPLAN OF CITY DESK ABQ TO GO THROUGH WHAT WE KNOW,  WHAT WE DON'T AND WHAT MAY BE TO COME.

AS CLIMATE CHANGE CONTINUES TO THROW NEW OBSTACLES OUR  STATE'S WAY, OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS IS SHIFTING HER  FOCUS FOR 2024 TO HOW NEW MEXICANS CAN ADAPT.

LATER ON IN THE SHOW LAURA TALKS WITH JEFF ABOUT HER  PLANS FOR THE YEAR AHEAD.

BUT FIRST, WE TURN OUR  ATTENTION TO THE STATE CAPITOL.

WE'RE HALFWAY THROUGH THIS YEAR'S 30-DAY LEGISLATIVE  SESSION AND A COUPLE OF DAYS PAST THE DEADLINE FOR ELECTED  OFFICIALS TO INTRODUCE NEW BILLS AT THE ROUNDHOUSE.

THE FINAL TALLY OF BILLS AND RESOLUTIONS STANDS JUST SHY OF  700 AND WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN SEVERAL MAJOR GUN CONTROL  PROPOSALS ENDORSED BY THE GOVERNOR ADVANCE THROUGH THE  PROCESS.

SENATE BILL 69, WHICH WOULD  REQUIRE A 14-DAY WAITING PERIOD TO PURCHASE A FIREARM,  PASSED THE SENATE HEALTH AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMITTEE AND  THE UPPER CHAMBER HAS PASSED SENATE BILL 5 WHICH WOULD BAN  GUNS INSIDE ALL STATEWIDE POLLING PLACES AND WITHIN  100 FEET OF A MAIN ENTRANCE DURING EARLY VOTING DAYS AND  ELECTION DAYS.

THAT VOTE ON THAT BILL WAS 26  TO 16.

WE ARE ALSO SEEING PROGRESS ON  BILLS RELATED TO THE ENVIRONMENT, EDUCATION, THE  STATE CHILDREN, YOUTH AND FAMILIES DEPARTMENT AND  SEVERAL OTHER ISSUES.

THE GOVERNOR PUT A LOT IN  FRONT OF LAWMAKERS DURING THIS YEAR'S SHORT SESSION,  SOMETHING SHE WAS QUICK TO ADMIT WHEN SHE SAT DOWN IN HER  OFFICE WITH GWYNETH DOLAND THIS WEEK.

IT IS AN INTERVIEW YOU'LL ONLY SEE HERE ON NMBPS AND IT IS  ONE WHERE THE GOVERNOR DETAILS HOW HER AGENDA IS PROGRESSING  AS THE SENATE PASSES THE MIDWAY POINT.

>> Gwyneth: GOVERNOR LUJAN GRISHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR  BEING WITH US.

>> Governor: THANK YOU FOR  HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

>> Gwyneth: WE APPRECIATE YOUR  TIME.

IT IS A BUSY SESSION.

YOU TOOK THIS SESSION A MULTI-PRONGED APPROACH TO YOUR  PUBLIC SAFETY AGENDA.

YOU HAVE GOT A PACKAGE SORT OF  TOUGH ON CRIME BILLS AND THEN SOME GUN BILLS, AMONG OTHER  THINGS.

SURPRISINGLY SOME OF THE GUN  BILLS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE MOVING.

WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THOSE WOULD BE A HARDER SELL.

JUST THIS WEEK THE BANNING GUNS IN POLLING PLACES AND A  14-DAY WAITING PERIOD ADVANCED.

DO INCREMENTAL RESTRICTIONS LIKE THIS HAVE REAL POTENTIAL  TO IMPROVE NEW MEXICANS SAFETY?

>> Governor: I BELIEVE THEY DO OR I WOULDN'T DO IT.

AND I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T DO IT IN A 30-DAY SESSION.

YOU KNOW PEOPLE ARE SORT OF PRESSURED TO DO SPECIAL  SESSIONS.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL  END RESULT AND THERE HAS TO BE EVIDENCE AND THERE IS EVIDENCE  THAT SUGGESTS IF WE CAN CURB PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NEVER HAVE  GUNS FROM HAVING GUNS, AND WE DON'T WANT WEAPONS OF MASS  DESTRUCTION ANYWHERE IN OUR COMMUNITIES, AND ANYTHING I  CAN DO TO PREVENT A MASS SHOOTING IN ANY CONTEXT IS  WORTH DOING.

I HAVE ACTUALLY A LITTLE  SURPRISE THAT THOSE ARE MOVING AND I WOULD SAY THAT  ALBUQUERQUE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH.

THEY CAN SEE IT.

WE HAVE DONE THOUSANDS OF  ARRESTS SINCE THE PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER AND I THINK  PEOPLE ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, I AM FEELING A LITTLE BIT BETTER  AND SAFER AND THE NUMBER OF GUNS WE HAVE TAKEN OFF THE  STREET, THAT BECOMES -- THAT VISUAL IS VISCERAL, RIGHT.

YOU FEEL IT AND I THINK THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THIS  MOMENTUM.

>> Gwyneth: YOU'RE VERY LUCKY  AS A GOVERNOR TO HAVE SUCH STRONG DEMOCRATIC MAJORITIES  IN THE STATE HOUSE.

>> Governor: AM I?

>> Gwyneth: WELL, THAT IS FUNNY BECAUSE IS IT PART OF  YOUR STRATEGY, I WANT TO KNOW, TO SHOW THAT NEW MEXICO CAN BE  A SORT OF PROVING GROUND FOR SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT  ANIMATE DEMOCRATS NATIONWIDE?

>> Governor: NO.

I AM REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY AND I THINK FOR  FAR TOO LONG DEMOCRATS DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT ABOUT THE  WORK THEY ARE TRYING TO DO, AND, QUITE FRANKLY, IN TODAY'S  POLITICAL CLIMATE YOU ARE EITHER VERY CONSERVATIVE, SO  WE DO NOTHING, OR YOU ARE INCREDIBLY LIBERAL AND WE  COULD MAKE ONE MISTAKE WITH SOMEONE WE MIGHT ARREST OR  DETAIN.

AND WHEN WE ARE OPERATING IN  THOSE KINDS OF EXTREMES, THINGS TYPICALLY DON'T GET  BETTER AND PEOPLE GET MORE HOSTILE IN THE POLICYMAKING  ENVIRONMENT.

I THINK DEMOCRATS HAVE TO  LEARN TO TALK SERIOUSLY ABOUT SAFETY.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE REALLY CLEAR.

ARE KIDS ARE AT RISK AND MORE KIDS ARE ENGAGED DIRECTLY IN  GUN VIOLENCE AND YOUNGER AND YOUNGER AND YOUNGER.

TO PRETEND THIS ISN'T OCCURRING IS FLAT WRONG.

I HAVE LEARNED SOME LESSONS AS A POLITICIAN.

THESE ARE AREAS NO ONE IS COMFORTABLE WITH BECAUSE IT IS  HARD TO FIND MIDDLE GROUND.

>> Gwyneth: HOW MUCH OF THE  PROBLEM YOU'RE TRYING TO FIGHT IS THE PERCEPTION OF CRIME?

>> Governor: THAT IS A HARD QUESTION TO ANSWER.

I THINK THAT PERCEPTION, EVEN IF THE FACTS DON'T ALWAYS BEAR  OUT THAT CRIME IS RISING.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU PROBABLY  ARE AWARE THAT WE CAN SHOW THAT A LOT OF CRIME IS  ACTUALLY HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

IT IS DIMINISHING IN ALBUQUERQUE.

VIOLENT CRIME HAS BEEN STAGNANT.

IT IS STILL HIGH AND IT IS NOT REALLY MOVING BUT I THINK WE  ARE GOING TO SEE A DIP AND IT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD  EXPECT, BUT IF WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT PREVENTION, SUPPORT  TO FAMILIES, DO SOMETHING ABOUT POVERTY, BETTER  EDUCATION, THE ANSWER TO CRIME IS ALWAYS JOBS, WELL, 110,000  JOBS JUST IN THE LAST THREE YEARS.

IT IS NOT A PERCEPTION.

THERE IS A CLIMATE AROUND THE  WORLD OF ANIMOSITY AND ANXIETY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF GUNS THAT ARE AVAILABLE FAR TOO EASY.

I THINK WE ARE ENAMORED -- THERE IS A NEGATIVE GUN  CULTURE, THAT COMBINATION HAS PROVEN TO BE QUITE DISTURBING  AND DANGEROUS IN AMERICA.

IF NEW MEXICO, AND I BELIEVE  WE WILL, IF WE CAN GET ON TOP OF IT AND SQUEEZE IT FROM BOTH  ENDS, I THINK PEOPLE WON'T HAVE THE DEBATE ABOUT  PERCEPTION AND WHAT STAT MEANS THIS OR ANOTHER, BUT WHEN I  FEEL SAFE GOING OUT ON THE DITCHES IN ALBUQUERQUE,   I MISS THEM.

GOING FOR A JOG AT 3:30, MAYBE IT IS A LITTLE LATE, SUMMER,  6:00, BY MYSELF, I AM GOING TO FEEL LIKE I AM NOT QUITE DONE  BECAUSE THAT IS THE COMMUNITY I GREW UP IN AND EVERYONE  DESERVES A CHANCE TO GROW UP IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE THEY  FEEL THAT SAFE.

>> Gwyneth: I WANT TO TALK  ABOUT KIDS AND SAFETY, CYFD.

THE AGENCY CHARGED WITH  PROTECTING NEW MEXICO'S MOST VULNERABLE CHILDREN IS  ARGUABLY BROKEN.

THERE IS A PROPOSAL UP HERE  NOW THAT WOULD TAKE THE AGENCY AWAY FROM THE EXECUTIVE, AWAY  FROM YOUR PURVIEW, AND GIVE IT TO AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

>> Governor: I AM NOT A BIG  FAN OF THAT.

I MEAN, CERTAINLY THERE HAVE  BEEN REPORTS OF THE LEGISLATURES TRYING TO TAKE  EXECUTIVE POWER AND THESE ARE DEBATES THAT AREN'T NEW AND  USUALLY THIS LONG INTO AN ADMINISTRATION, THOSE DEBATES  RESURFACE, BUT TAKE A LOOK AT OUR BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS,  LOTS OF COMPLAINTS, SOMETIMES REGENTS TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF  OUR UNIVERSITIES AND WHETHER THEY TREND IN THE RIGHT  DIRECTION.

YOU CREATE ANOTHER LAYER OF  BUREAUCRACY AND WHO IS ACCOUNTABLE?

ONE OF THOSE BOARD MEMBERS?

FIVE OF THOSE BOARD MEMBERS?

SOME OF THOSE BOARD MEMBERS?

CYFD IN EVERY STATE, CHILD  WELFARE, THAT SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

WE DON'T INVEST IN FAMILIES, OR IN KIDS OR IN WELL-BEING  AND IT IS IN EVERY ONE OF MY DEPARTMENTS.

THAT IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR ISSUES IN CYFD, BUT I THINK  THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW MAYBE A COUPLE OF THINGS.

PROTECTIVE SERVICES WHERE WE DO OUR INVESTIGATIONS, IT HAS  LESS MONEY RIGHT NOW WITH THE DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED  MAJORITY SUPERMAJORITY IN THE HOUSE THAN IT DID WHEN WE GOT  HERE.

YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS ABOUT  DOING THE INVESTIGATIONS AND CATCHING UP IF YOU'RE NOT  GOING TO FUND THAT.

IT IS A, UNFORTUNATELY, HOT  BUTTON ISSUE LIKE IMMIGRATION AND IT IS SO IN EVERY STATE.

I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR OR A  DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR.

IN FACT, WHEN I RAN IN '18  WORDS LIKE BELEAGUERED, PEOPLE WHO WERE RUNNING IT, NOT  QUALIFIED.

THERE WAS NO STAFF THERE.

AND WE DID.

WE INHERITED A 40% VACANCY  RATE IN MANY OF OUR DEPARTMENTS, INCLUDING THAT  ONE.

IF THOSE ARE THE HEADLINES, IS  THAT A DEPARTMENT YOU WANT TO WORK?

ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT RISK?

YOU BET YOU ARE.

I AM FEELING LIKE THE ISSUE I  COULD HAVE ADDRESSED BETTER IN 2019 IS I KEPT HIRING  BRILLIANT POLICYMAKERS, BUT I HAVE A LOT OF HELP ON THE  POLICIES.

I NEEDED MANAGERS, COACHES AND  I NEED FOLKS WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT TAKES IN A PUBLIC  CONTEXT TO DELIVER THAT PERSONNEL RESPONSE TO KIDDOS.

WE ARE GOING TO DO A LOT OF POLICY WORK.

THE NEXT SESSION WILL BE ALL ABOUT COMPLETE REVAMPING OF  THE CHILD WELL-BEING SYSTEM AND DIFFERENT ACCOUNTABILITY  SO THAT EVERY GOVERNOR GETS A FAIR START WITH CYFD, BECAUSE  MOST GOVERNORS, I WOULD ARGUE, HAVEN'T GOTTEN A FAIR START  AND THAT MEANS KIDS AND THEIR FAMILIES DON'T GET WHAT THEY  DESERVE FROM THIS STATE AND I BET THAT I CAN DELIVER THAT  BEFORE I LEAVE.

>> Gwyneth: I WANT TO MOVE ON  TO CLIMATE.

YOU HAVE MADE CLIMATE A  SIGNATURE ISSUE.

THERE ARE ADVOCATES OUT THERE  FOR CLIMATE SAYING THE NO.

1 THING THAT THE GOVERNOR COULD  DO NOW IS LOWER THE AMOUNT OF OIL AND GAS PRODUCTION THAT IS  HAPPENING IN THE STATE, LOWER THE AMOUNT OF STUFF THAT WE  ARE PULLING OUT OF THE EARTH.

WHY HAVE YOU NOT PUSHED FOR A  CAP ON PRODUCTION?

>> Governor: WELL, I HAVE  LOOKED AT SOME OF THOSE CAPS  ON PRODUCTION SO I AM NOT SURE THEY WORK IN THE WAY THAT WE  THINK THEY DO.

TWO, THAT DOESN'T STOP TEXAS  FROM TAKING ALL OF THAT SAME OIL RIGHT OUT AND THEY DON'T  CLEAN IT UP.

THEY DON'T REQUIRE RECYCLED  WATER.

THEY DON'T HAVE A METHANE  RULE.

THEY DON'T CHANGE THE  PNEUMATIC VALVES.

AND AS WEIRD AS THIS SOUNDS,  SOUNDS EVEN WEIRD TO ME AND I AM GOING TO SAY IT ANYWAY.

WE PRODUCE THE CLEANEST BARREL OF OIL, CLEANEST NATURAL GAS  IN THE WORLD.

WELL, IT IS STILL A FOSSIL  FUEL AND IT STILL GETS BURNED AND EMITS GREENHOUSE GASES,  BUT WE ARE SETTING THE STANDARD INCLUDING IN METHANE  CAPTURE.

YOU WANT THE REST OF THE WORLD  THAT IS GOING TO KEEP PRODUCING OIL TO GET WHERE WE  ARE, LEAD BY EXAMPLE.

AND WHILE YOU DO THAT, MORE  AGGRESSIVELY INVEST IN RENEWABLE ENERGY AND A REAL  TRANSITION.

I THINK THAT WE ARE GOING TO  START TO BEAT STATES WITHOUT BEING A PER CAPITA ANALYSIS,  BECAUSE WE ARE SMALL, TWO MILLION PEOPLE.

I THINK THAT WE ARE GOING TO WIN THE RACE ON THESE  TRANSITIONS.

NOW A LOT OF IT DEPENDS ON OUR  TRANSMISSION.

NOBODY WANTS THOSE EITHER  BECAUSE -- >> Gwyneth: TRANSMISSION LINES  COMING THROUGH COMMUNITIES.

THEY LOOK UGLY.

>> Governor: AND THEY ARE EMITTERS.

I MEAN, EVEN WHEN YOU PUT GREEN ELECTRONS ON, THERE IS  NO COMPLETELY UNIVERSAL SIMPLE ISSUE AND THAT IS BECAUSE WE  WAITED TOO LONG.

I WANT NEW MEXICO TO LEAD THE  COUNTRY AND WE CAN MAKE ALL OF IT BETTER WHILE WE LEAN REALLY  HEAVILY INTO RENEWABLES, INCLUDING INDIVIDUAL  RESPONSIBILITY.

AND WE HAVE GOT MORE GOOD  SOLAR POLICIES AND PRACTICES THAN CERTAINLY ANY OF OUR  NEIGHBORS STATES BUT MOST STATES IN THE COUNTRY.

AND I AM GOING TO KEEP DOING JUST THAT.

I ALSO WANT FOLKS TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, GOVERNORS ARE NOT  OMNIPOTENT AND I DON'T HAVE THE POWER ON PRIVATE LAND OR  WITH TEXAS OR WITH ANYONE TO DO ALL OF THAT STUFF.

IT IS SIMPLE AND IN A WEAK MOMENT, OF COURSE, WHEN I LOOK  AT MY GRANDCHILDREN, I JUST WANT TO WAVE A MAGIC WAND AND  I WANT THERE TO BE NO MORE CARBON EMITTED ANYWHERE IN THE  WORLD.

BUT I DON'T HAVE THAT.

I CAN BE AGGRESSIVE AND PRAGMATIC AND I CAN DO MY PART  TO SAVE THE EARTH AND TO MAKE SURE THAT NEW MEXICO LEADS IN  THAT SPACE.

>> Gwyneth: THERE IS A  MOVEMENT UP HERE THIS SESSION TO HELP THE LEGISLATURE GET  MORE DONE.

SENATOR PETER WIRTH TOLD US HE  WANTS THREE THINGS IN TERMS OF MODERNIZATION; PAID  LEGISLATORS, PAID STAFF FOR THOSE LAWMAKERS AND LONGER  SESSIONS.

60-DAY SESSIONS EVERY YEAR.

YOU ARE AN AMBITIOUS LEADER AND YOU HAD A BIG AGENDA THIS  SESSION.

DO LAWMAKERS NEED ALL OF THAT  TO KEEP UP WITH YOU?

>> Governor: THEY HAVE MANAGED  EVEN SO AND PETER WIRTH SAID THIS MORNING AND SO DID THE  PRESBYTERIAN PRAYER BREAKFAST, THE GOVERNOR'S PRAYER  BREAKFAST, THAT WE HAVE GOTTEN A LOT DONE, MORE THAN PROBABLY  ALL THE PREDECESSORS.

I HAVE A TENDENCY TO PUSH HARD  AND TRY TO GET EVERYTHING DONE.

I WANT IT ALL.

I WANT PERFECTION.

AND I WOULD SUSPECT THERE IS A LOT OF GOVERNORS OUT THERE BUT  YOU WORRY ABOUT THE POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS WHEN YOU PUSH  TOO HARD.

I HAVEN'T BEEN VERY GOOD ABOUT  WORRYING ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T THINK YOU NEED 60 DAYS  EVERY TIME BECAUSE THEY GET IT DONE.

I DON'T HAVE THE PRESSURE OF TRYING TO GET IT ALL DONE.

I DO THINK THAT WHEN IT IS FAST AND IT IS FURIOUS, IT CAN  LEAD TO MORE TENSION AND SOMETIMES NOT AS DELIBERATIVE  AN ENVIRONMENT.

I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T STAND IN  THE WAY OF THOSE EFFORTS BUT THE ONE THING THAT IS VERY  PERSONAL THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY'LL FIND THE BALANCE,  THESE ARE PROFESSIONALS WHO DEDICATE THEIR LIVES IN A  VOLUNTARY WAY YEAR ROUND TO POLICYMAKING.

IT DOESN'T END.

NO STAFF, THEY DON'T GET PAID.

IT MINIMIZES WHERE YOU CAN WORK BECAUSE YOU'RE VOTING ALL  SORTS OF ISSUES AND REGULATORY ASPECTS THAT COULD AFFECT THE  BUSINESS THAT YOU MIGHT BE IN.

IT REALLY HAMSTRINGS WHO CAN  BE A POLICYMAKER.

WHEN WE MAKE IT FULL-TIME OR  NEARLY FULL-TIME OR CHANGE IT SO THAT IT IS MORE TIME AND  WHEN WE PAY THE LEGISLATORS, BECAUSE I THINK THAT IS  INEVITABLE BECAUSE THESE ARE PROFESSIONALS, IT WON'T BE AS  FRIENDLY AND INVITING.

IT WILL BE A DIFFERENT FORMAT.

LOOK AT CONGRESS, LOOK AT LEGISLATURES AROUND THE WORLD.

THEY GET A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLICATED, A LITTLE BIT MORE  FORMAL.

FOR A STATE THAT PRIDES ITSELF  ON RELATIONSHIPS AND I HAVE KIDS UP HERE ALL DAY EVERYDAY.

I LOVE IT.

I WONDER IF ALL THOSE KIDS ARE  GOING TO GET TO COME OR IF THEY HAVE TO MAKE APPOINTMENTS  AND IS IT REALLY EDUCATION DAY OR IS IT SOME OTHER DAY.

>> Gwyneth: BUT, I MEAN, DO WE WANT IT TO BE COMFORTABLE OR  DO WE WANT TO GET STUFF DONE?

>> Governor: I THINK YOU CAN  DO BOTH.

SO, WHEN THEY BECOME THAT PAID  MORE TYPICAL LEGISLATURE THAT SHOWS RESPECT TO THE  POLICYMAKERS, MY HOPE, I PROBABLY WON'T BE HERE, BUT MY  HOPE IS THEY KEEP IT INFORMAL AND THEY KEEP IT KIND AND THAT  THEY REMEMBER THAT THEY DID A LOT EVEN WITHOUT THAT AND THEY  ARE CAPABLE OF REMARKABLE THINGS.

>> Gwyneth: BEFORE WE GET OUT OF HERE, WE ARE HALFWAY  THROUGH THE SESSION -- THE SHORT SESSION.

WHAT ARE THREE THINGS YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE BEFORE  THE GAVEL IS DOWN.

>> Governor: WELL, I HAVE MADE  IT REALLY CLEAR THAT THIS PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE AGENDA IS  REALLY SERIOUS AND WHILE THESE GUN BILLS ARE MOVING, THERE  ARE OTHERS, SO I WANT THE FULL GAMUT, RIGHT.

SO INCREASED PENALTIES WHERE THEY SHOULD BE.

IT CERTAINLY NOT REVISING THE WHOLE CRIMINAL CODE THAT WE  ARE JUST DOING THAT.

I NEED MORE MONEY FOR KIDS FOR  AFTER SCHOOL PROGRAMS.

THOSE AREN'T FUNDED.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THE WHOLE EFFORT, I NEED CYFD  FULLY FUNDED.

I NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT MY  POLICE RETENTION AND RECRUITMENT FUND IS FULL.

IT IS WORKING.

WOULD HE HAVE 500 NEW  OFFICERS.

WHY WOULD YOU STOP DOING THAT  NOW?

I WANT THE OTHER 500.

AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT AS WE START TO NEGOTIATE THE  TAX PACKAGE THAT ALL THE ENVIRONMENTAL INCENTIVES ARE  IN THAT TAX PACKAGE, AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, THE STRATEGIC  WATER SUPPLY, I NEED TO KEEP EXPLAINING IT AND I NEED TO  MAKE SURE THAT ANY OF THE CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM ABOUT  WHAT IT COULD DO, THAT I DO MY WORK TO CONVINCE NEW MEXICANS,  I BELIEVE, IN A STATE THAT DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH WATER THAT  THIS IS A GAME CHANGER THAT PROTECTS, FIRST AND FOREMOST,  CONSUMERS AND FAMILIES, IMPROVES THE HEALTH OF KIDDOS  AND CREATES THAT REAL TRANSITION INTO AN INCREDIBLE  ECONOMIC POWERHOUSE.

AND THAT STRATEGIC WATER  EFFORT WILL TEND ITSELF TO THE REST OF THE WEST AND PLACES  LIKE AFRICA.

I AM REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THAT  WORK AND TAXPAYERS DON'T FRONT A NICKEL.

NOT UNTIL WE GET SOMETHING THAT WE WANT.

AND I AM GOING TO FIGHT HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT GETS  UPSTAIRS.

>> Gwyneth: GOVERNOR, THANK  YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US TODAY.

>> Governor: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Lou: ONE MAJOR PROPOSAL DID MEET AN EARLY END.

SENATE BILL 122, WHICH WOULD HAVE REQUIRED DEFENDANTS IN  SOME FELONY CASES TO CONVINCE JUDGES THAT THEY AREN'T A  DANGER TO THE PUBLIC IN ORDER TO BE RELEASED BEFORE TRIAL.

THAT IS INSTEAD OF THE STATE BEING REQUIRED TO PROVE THE  OPPOSITE, WHICH IS HOW IT WORKS NOW.

THE SENATE HEALTH AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMITTEE VOTED 5 TO 4  TO TABLE THE MEASURE MEANING IT IS AS GOOD AS DEAD.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING IT HARDER FOR VIOLENT OFFENDERS  TO GET OUT AHEAD OF TRIAL, THE GOVERNOR SAID SHE IS NOT DONE.

SHE TOLD OUR GWYNETH DOLAND THIS WEEK THAT THE BILL MIGHT  MAKE A COMEBACK BUT COULDN'T PROVIDE MANY DETAILS.

THE DEADLINE FOR FILING NEW LEGISLATION HAS ALREADY PASSED  WHICH MEANS THE GOVERNOR AND HER ALLIES WOULD HAVE TO USE A  PROCEDURAL TRICK TO RESURRECT THE BILL.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> Gwyneth: DEMOCRATS HAVE  BLOCKED YOU ON SOME OF YOUR PROPOSALS LIKE PRETRIAL  DETENTION.

NOW, JUDGES DO ALREADY HAVE  THE POWER TO DO THIS, IF PROSECUTORS CAN PROVE THAT IT  IS NECESSARY, BUT SOME DEMOCRATS UP HERE JUST INSIST  THAT IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

WHY KEEP PUSHING FOR IT?

>> Governor: BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN THE DIFFERENCE IT MAKES,  EVEN IN, TODAY IN ALBUQUERQUE, THE ONLY PLACE WE ARE DOING  IT, WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN GUN VIOLENCE.

YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOW DETAINING THEM AND 100 PEOPLE WE CAN  SHOW YOU HAVE RECOMMITTED A CRIME AND MANY OF THEM VIOLENT  CRIME.

I THINK THE DEBATE, JUST AS I  DESCRIBED, GOT TOO FAR ON EITHER SIDE.

WE DO HAVE AN OBLIGATION AND A CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENT TO  PROTECT PEOPLE FROM BEING DETAINED UNCONSTITUTIONALLY.

YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

NO ONE WANTS THAT CONCEPT TO BE ERODED IN ANY WAY AND IF WE  DID THE FEDS WOULD HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO BE CLEAR WHEN YOU HAVE REPEAT OFFENDERS AND  YOU HAVE VIOLENT OFFENDERS AND POLICE STOP ARRESTING THEM AND  PEOPLE STOP CALLING 911, NOW WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM IN OUR  COMMUNITIES.

SO WE ARE FIGHTING ON THE  FRINGES.

I THINK MAYBE WE HAVE BEEN  APPROACHING THE DIALOGUE ABOUT THIS NOT AS EFFECTIVELY AS WE  COULD HAVE.

AND THAT IS THIS.

I AM STILL IN THE FRAMEWORK WHERE IT HAS GOT TO BE ALL ONE  WAY.

LOOK WE DON'T WANT ANYONE  INNOCENT WHO ISN'T A REAL THREAT BEING HELD  UNCONSTITUTIONALLY OR EVEN IF THAT WASN'T THE STANDARD.

WHY WOULD WE WANT THAT?

BUT, IF WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT  IN A WAY THAT SAYS, WE NEED SAFEGUARDS FOR THE COMMUNITY.

CAN WE DESCRIBE THOSE SAFEGUARDS A BIT DIFFERENTLY,  SO THAT IT CUES THE JUDGES TO ASK MORE SERIOUS QUESTIONS  ABOUT THE PATTERNS OF CRIME AND WE TRAIN DA'S AND PD'S TO  ENGAGE IN THAT DIALOGUE, I THINK WE COULD GET SOME BETTER  RESULTS.

WE ARE SEEING BETTER RESULTS  JUST BY TALKING ABOUT IT WITH JUDGES.

SO, I THINK THAT IS AN INDICATION WE POTENTIALLY MADE  SOME MISTAKES.

AND I WANT TO GET IT TO A  PLACE WHERE IT BECOMES ROUTINE, HAVING IT BE ROUTINE,  MEANS YOU GET IT IN STATUTE AND I THINK IT DOESN'T HAVE TO  BE LIKE THE FEDERAL STANDARD, WHICH IS WHAT I INTRODUCED,  BUT STAY TUNED, I THINK WE MIGHT HAVE ANOTHER PATH  FORWARD.

>> Lou: WE'LL WAIT TO SEE IF  AND WHEN A MASSAGED PRE-TRIAL DETENTION BILL RESURFACES AND  WE'LL BE SURE TO LET YOU KNOW IF IT DOES.

NOW TO NAIL DOWN THE THOUGHT PROCESS BEHIND INSTITUTING A  STRICTER SYSTEM, WE TURN TO BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT  ATTORNEY, SAM BREGMAN.

HE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST  VOCAL SALESMEN FOR BIG CHANGES TO PRE-TRIAL DETENTION IN THE  STATE.

IN AN INTERVIEW RECORDED DAYS  BEFORE SENATE BILL 122 DIED, BREGMAN EXPLAINS WHAT  PROSECUTORS MUST DO NOW IN COURT TO KEEP SOMEONE IN JAIL  AND WHY HE THINKS THE SYSTEM NEEDS MORE PROTECTION.

>> Lou: BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, SAM  BREGMAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME HERE ON NEW MEXICO  IN FOCUS.

>> Bregman: IT'S A PLEASURE.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Lou: NOW WE JUST LAID OUT  THE LANDSCAPE SURROUNDING PRE-TRIAL DETENTION AND THE  GOVERNOR'S REPEATED CALLS TO CHANGE IT.

I WOULD LIKE TO START BY ASKING YOU TO EXPLAIN HOW  THINGS WORK NOW.

WHAT EXACTLY MUST YOUR  PROSECUTORS DO AND PROVE IN COURT TO KEEP SOMEONE IN JAIL  BEFORE TRIAL?

>> Bregman: LET'S GO BACK A LITTLE BIT.

BAIL REFORM TOOK PLACE SEVERAL YEARS BACK AND BASICALLY THE  IDEA, AND I SUPPORTED THE BILL AND STILL DO, IN THE SENSE  NOBODY SHOULD BE KEPT IN JAIL SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN'T  AFFORD TO PAY BAIL, BASED ON HOW MUCH MONEY THEY HAVE.

THAT IS AN UNACCEPTABLE RESULT.

SO WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE, HOWEVER, THAT  BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTIONS, BECAUSE OF THE CHARGES AGAINST  THEM, PERHAPS BECAUSE OF THEIR VIOLENT HISTORY, IF YOU WILL,  THE CHARGES ARE SO SEVERE IN THE SENSE OF VIOLENCE IN THE  COMMUNITY, THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY IS AT STAKE,  THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT SHOULD NOT BE LET OUT PENDING  TRIAL FOR THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY.

SO, IT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE FOR US AS PROSECUTORS  BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT TOO OFTEN FOLKS THAT ARE VIOLENT IN  NATURE, FOLKS THAT HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH VIOLENT CRIMES  AND HAVE A HISTORY OF VIOLENT CRIMES, WHILE THEY ARE WAITING  FOR THAT TRIAL DATE, THEY COMMIT ANOTHER VIOLENT CRIME.

AND THE COMMUNITY SUFFERS DEEPLY BECAUSE OF IT.

SO, OF COURSE, WE HAVE SOME BURDENS NOW AND WE WELCOME ANY  BURDEN UNDER THE LAW THAT WE NEED TO DO TO KEEP THEM HELD.

WE FILE PRE-TRIAL DETENTION MOTIONS CURRENTLY.

WHICH IS OUR BURDEN BASICALLY IS TO SHOW THAT BASED ON THE  CHARGES, BASED ON THE HISTORY, BASED ON WHAT IS GOING ON,  THERE IS NO REASONABLE CONDITION THAT CAN BE PUT ON  THAT DEFENDANT TO ASSURE THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY.

AND BECAUSE OF THAT, JUDGES HAVE TO SIT BACK AND MAKE A  DECISION AT THIS POINT.

>> Lou: ONE PHRASE THAT WE DO  HEAR A LOT UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS CATCH AND RELEASE.

WE HAVE HEARD IT IN ELECTIONS AND THE IDEA THERE, THE  PERCEPTION THERE, IS THAT SUSPECTED CRIMINALS ARE OFTEN  ARRESTED, BOOKED, THROWN RIGHT BACK OUT ON TO THE STREET  REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE CHARGED WITH.

IS THAT PHRASE ACCURATE?

>> Bregman: I AM NOT A BIG FAN  OF THE PHRASE CATCH AND RELEASE BECAUSE I THINK IT  DEMEANS THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

THERE ARE A LOT OF MOVING PARTS IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE  SYSTEM.

OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS  NOT PERFECT BUT IT IS THE BEST THAT THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN  AND I FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THAT.

OBVIOUSLY SOMEONE IS PRESUMED INNOCENT UNTIL AND UNLESS THEY  ARE PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW.

THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT THAT EVERY  PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY HAS.

AT THE SAME TIME WE HAVE SEEN  INSTANCES WHERE SOMEONE HAS BEEN RELEASED PRETRIAL AND  JUST AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THEY HAVE GONE OUT AND  COMMITTED ANOTHER HORRIFIC CRIME.

AND SO PEOPLE GET VERY FRUSTRATED ABOUT THAT.

RIGHTFULLY SO.

THE COMMUNITY GETS OUTRAGED BY  SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENING.

RIGHTFULLY SO.

SO, WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN, I THINK, AND I KNOW  THAT MY OFFICE IS DOING THAT.

OUR PRE-TRIAL DETENTION  SUCCESS HAS GONE UP 10% EVEN AFTER WE FILED MORE PRE-TRIAL  DETENTION MOTIONS THIS YEAR THAN THE YEAR BEFORE.

WE ARE HAVING SOME SUCCESS AROUND THE MARGINS.

>> Lou: THOSE CASES YOU JUST DESCRIBED, SOMEBODY GETTING  OUT AND COMMITTING ANOTHER CRIME, WHERE IS THE POINT OF  FAILURE IN THAT PROCESS?

>> Bregman: THE POINT OF  FAILURE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE IS A  POINT OF FAILURE.

I MEAN NOBODY HAS A CRYSTAL BALL.

NOBODY.

YOU'LL NEVER HEAR ME CRITICIZE A COURT OR A JUDGE FOR A  DECISION THEY HAVE MADE IN THE COURTROOM.

I AM AN OLD SCHOOL LAWYER.

I REVERE JUDGES.

I THINK THE WORLD OF THEM.

WE, AS PROSECUTORS, IN  BERNALILLO COUNTY, WE'LL DO OUR ARGUING IN THE COURTROOM  AND THE JUDGES WILL MAKE THEIR DECISIONS BASED ON THE  EVIDENCE THEY HAVE IN FRONT OF THEM.

JUDGES LIVE IN THIS COMMUNITY TOO, THEY UNDERSTAND THE CRIME  PROBLEM OUT THERE.

I DON'T THINK I HAVE EVER SEEN  A JUDGE TAKES IT LIGHTLY OR JUST FLIPPANTLY RELEASES  SOMEBODY JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.

I THINK THESE ARE WELL THOUGHT OUT DECISIONS AND SOMETIMES I  DON'T AGREE WITH THEM, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HEAR ME  COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR ME  CONTINUING TO ENSURE THAT OUR OFFICE PRESENTS THE BEST  POSSIBLE CASE, IF YOU WILL, AS FAR AS EVIDENCE TO SHOW TO A  JUDGE WHY THIS PERSON SHOULD BE HELD.

>> Lou: SOMETHING YOU BROUGHT UP EARLIER IS THAT 2016  CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT OVERHAULED THE STATE'S  PRETRIAL RELEASE SYSTEM.

YOU SAID PUBLICLY AND JUST NOW  HERE YOU STILL SUPPORT IT.

EVEN THOUGH 80% OF NEW MEXICO  VOTERS GAVE JUDGES THE POWER TO HOLD PEOPLE IN JAIL BEFORE  TRAIL, DO YOU SEE ANY CONTRADICTION IN ALSO  SUPPORTING A CHANGE THAT KIND OF TURNS THAT IDEA ON ITS HEAD  FORCING DEFENDANTS TO PROVE THEY ARE NOT A DANGER IN ORDER  TO BE RELEASED?

>> Bregman: NO.

I DON'T FEEL THERE IS ANY CONTRADICTION IN THE TWO.

I STILL STRONGLY SUPPORT THE IDEA OF WHAT BAIL REFORM WAS  ABOUT AND THAT IS NOBODY SHOULD BE HELD INCARCERATED  PENDING TRIAL JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD THE $100 OR  THE $1000 BAIL MONEY THAT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO BE  POSTED SO THAT THEY COULD BE RELEASED THROUGH A BAIL  BONDING COMPANY.

AT THE SAME TIME, THOUGH, WE  ALSO KNOW, AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER.

WE ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE, THOUGH,  BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENT NATURE OF THE CRIME THEY ARE ACCUSED  OF OR BECAUSE OF THEIR HISTORY IN VIOLENT CRIME OR BECAUSE OF  THEIR HISTORY IN FAILING TO EVER FOLLOW A COURT ORDER.

IN OTHER WORDS, THEY DON'T SHOW UP FOR COURT WHEN THEY  HAVE BEEN RELEASED BEFORE IN A LOWER LEVEL CASE.

THEY HAVE A HISTORY OF GIVING THE MIDDLE FINGER, IF YOU  WILL, TO A COURT AND SAYING, I AM NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO  WHATEVER YOU TELL ME.

THEY HAVE A HISTORY OF CUTTING  OFF ANKLE BRACELETS, AN ANKLE MONITOR THAT TRACKS GPS WHERE  SOMEONE IS.

>> Lou: IN JUNE OF LAST YEAR,  UNM'S INSTITUTE FOR SOCIAL RESEARCH PUT OUT DATA SHOWING  PRE-TRIAL DETENTION IN BERNALILLO COUNTY IT HAS BEEN  UP SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN DA.

IS THAT NOT EVIDENCE THAT THE  SYSTEM IS WORKING RIGHT NOW AND PERHAPS AN ARGUMENT  AGAINST FURTHER CHANGE?

>> Bregman: I THINK IT IS  EVIDENCE THAT OUR PROSECUTORS ARE DOING A HECK OF A GOOD JOB  OVER IN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

THEY ARE FOCUSED LIKE A LASER BEAM ON TRYING TO MAKE SURE WE  KEEP EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO IS A THREAT TO THE COMMUNITY  HELD, IF THEY ARE FACING SEVERE CRIMINAL CHARGES.

I THINK IT IS A TESTAMENT TO HOW HARD THEY WORK.

I THINK IT IS ALSO A TESTAMENT TO A RECENT SUPREME COURT CASE  FROM THE STATE, JOE ANDERSON, THAT THE SUPREME COURT JUST  RULED ON, BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS A TESTAMENT THAT SAYS WE  CAN'T DO BETTER.

>> Lou: THE PRETRIAL DETENTION  BILL IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM OF A REBUTTABLE PRESUMPTION, AT  LEAST, SPLIT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WITH MANY MEMBERS  CONCERNED IT WOULD VIOLATE THE STATE CONSTITUTION.

IN AN INTERVIEW ALSO RECORDED BEFORE SB122 WAS TABLED,  GWYNETH CAUGHT UP WITH SENATE MAJORITY LEADER PETER WIRTH TO  TALK ABOUT WHY HE DIDN'T SEE EYE TO EYE WITH THE GOVERNOR  OR DA BREGMAN.

>> Gwyneth: ALBUQUERQUE  DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAM BREGMAN TOLD US ON THE SHOW THIS WEEK,  HE NEEDS HELP KEEPING THE MOST VIOLENT OFFENDERS IN JAIL  BEFORE THEY'RE FOUND GUILTY.

FEDERAL COURTS CAN DO IT.

WHY SHOULD WE NOT HAVE A REBUTTABLE PRESUMPTION AND  FORCE DEFENDANTS TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE NOT A DANGER  BEFORE WE LET THEM OUT OF JAIL?

>> Wirth: SO THE ANSWER IS THE NEW MEXICO CONSTITUTION.

IN OUR CONSTITUTION, WE CREATE A BURDEN OF PROOF AND  WE PLACE IT ON THE PROSECUTORS TO SHOW BY CLEAR  AND CONVINCING EVIDENCE THAT SOMEONE IS DANGEROUS.

PRIOR TO THAT CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, ANYONE THAT WAS  DANGEROUS COULD BAIL OUT AND BE ON THE STREET.

WE CREATED A MECHANISM TO HOLD DANGEROUS OFFENDERS.

AND I WANT TO ENCOURAGE AND COMMEND DA BREGMAN FOR THE  JOB HE HAS DONE IN USING THE TOOL THAT'S AVAILABLE.

MY FEELING IS, WE NEED TO GET HIM THE RESOURCES TO BE  ABLE TO IMPLEMENT THE CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK  THAT'S THERE.

>> Gwyneth: NOW, HE TOLD US HE  RESPECTFULLY DISAGREES WITH THAT OPINION.

HE THINKS IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL AND THE STATE  SUPREME COURT SHOULD DECIDE.

>> Wirth: WELL, AGAIN, I THINK  THAT THAT'S SOMETHING WE'LL DEBATE HERE, AND OBVIOUSLY  YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF LAWYERS THAT DISAGREE AND I  RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH HIS OPINION ON THAT, AND WE'LL  CONTINUE TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION.

>> Lou: LEGISLATORS HAVE JUST TWO MORE WEEKS TO PASS BILLS  AND SEND THEM TO THE GOVERNOR'S DESK FOR HER  SIGNATURE.

WE'LL KEEP YOU UPDATED  THROUGH THE SESSION'S LAST DAY ON SEPTEMBER 15th.

NOW WE HEAD FROM SANTA FE TO ALBUQUERQUE WHERE NEWS OF A  FEDERAL CORRUPTION INVESTIGATION INTO THE APD  DWI UNIT BROKE TWO WEEKS AGO.

SO FAR, FBI AGENTS HAVE RAIDED THE HOMES AND OFFICES  OF MULTIPLE POLICE OFFICERS, A WELL-KNOWN LOCAL CRIMINAL  DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AND HIS PARALEGAL.

SHORTLY AFTER, DA SAM BREGMAN DISMISSED MORE THAN  150 DRUNK DRIVING CASES, SAYING HE HAD NO CHOICE ONCE  HE LEARNED ABOUT THE FEDERAL INVESTIGATION.

IT'S A FAST-MOVING STORY THAT'S SEEN A LOT OF BACK  AND FORTH AMONG OFFICIALS AT THE CITY, COUNTY AND FEDERAL  LEVELS, BUT THEY'VE GIVEN US FEW HARD FACTS.

THAT MEANS ALMOST EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS THANKS TO THE  WORK OF JOURNALISTS.

THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL'S  MATTHEW REISEN AND ELISE KAPLAN OF CITY DESK ABQ HAVE  BEEN OUT FRONT OF MANY OF THE DEVELOPMENTS.

THE FORMER COLLEAGUES SAT DOWN THIS WEEK WITH  EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR TO BREAK DOWN THE  FACTS, THE QUESTIONS, AND THE FUTURE FLOWING FROM THIS  EXPLOSIVE STORY.

>> Jeff: ELISE, MATT, IT'S  GREAT TO HAVE YOU BOTH HERE WITH ME TODAY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU BOTH COMING DOWN TO SHARE YOUR  REPORTING ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT, VERY,   VERY CRAZY STORY.

THANKS FOR COMING.

>> Kaplan: OF COURSE, THANK  YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Reisen: THANKS FOR HAVING  US.

>> Jeff: SO ONE OF THE THINGS  FROM WHERE I'M SITTING THAT MAKES THIS A SUPER CRAZY STORY  IS THE POSITY OF OFFICIAL INFORMATION THAT'S COME OUT.

THERE'S BEEN LOTS OF FINGER-POINTING, LOTS OF  SUGGESTION, SOME RECRIMINATIONS EVEN AT THIS  POINT, BUT NO ONE HAS COME OUT AND SAID, LIKE, EXACTLY WHAT  THE HELL THIS THING IS.

I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE RIGHT  NOW THAT THAT COULD BE TOTALLY DIFFERENT BY THE  TIME PEOPLE SEE THIS CONVERSATION, BUT FOR RIGHT  NOW, ELISE, WHAT DO WE KNOW IN TERMS OF HARD FACTS?

>> Kaplan: YEAH, I THINK WE KNOW SEVERAL THINGS TO START  OFF WITH.

WE KNOW THAT THE FBI  SEARCHED AND RAIDED THE HOMES OF SOME APD DWI UNIT  OFFICERS AND THE OFFICE OF A LOCAL ATTORNEY, THOMAS  CLEAR.

WE KNOW THAT THE FBI HAS  BEEN INVESTIGATING THESE OFFICERS, AND IT SEEMS TO  BE -- THE ALLEGATIONS THAT SEEM TO BE SWIRLING AROUND  WITHIN THE LEGAL COMMUNITY SEEM TO POINT TO THAT THERE  WAS SOME KIND OF COLLUSION BETWEEN THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY  AND THE OFFICERS TO MAYBE GET CASES DISMISSED, TO GET  FAVORABLE OUTCOMES.

WE ALSO NOW KNOW THAT IN  NOVEMBER, THE DISTRICT COURT FLAGGED THAT ONE OF THEIR  FORMER EMPLOYEES HAD HAD A CONCERNING INTERACTION WITH  ONE OF THE DWI OFFICERS WHO HAS BEEN NAMED IN THIS  INVESTIGATION, WHO WE HAVE NAMED IN THIS INVESTIGATION,  AND THAT THAT OFFICER KIND OF, YOU KNOW, HINTED THAT HE  COULD GET THE CASE DROPPED IF HE HIRED A CERTAIN  LAWYER.

AND WE KNOW THAT 150 DWI  CASES HAVE BEEN DROPPED, SO THAT'S ALSO A HUGE DEAL  THAT'S GOING TO HAVE CONSEQUENCES KIND OF ROLLING  ON DOWN THE LINE.

>> Jeff: AND HAS OBVIOUSLY LED  TO SOME OF THE DOT CONNECTING, RIGHT.

YOU'VE GOT THIS PIECE, THIS PIECE, THIS PIECE, AND THEY  SEEM TO BE CONNECTED.

LET'S LOOK THROUGH THE OTHER  END OF THE KALEIDOSCOPE.

MATT, WHAT DON'T WE KNOW,  AND WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW RIGHT NOW AT THIS STAGE?

>> Reisen: WE DON'T KNOW HOW EXACTLY THIS ALL PLAYED OUT AND IF THERE WERE DIFFERENT  MECHANISMS THROUGH WHICH THIS PLAYED OUT.

YOU KNOW, THE ALLEGATIONS TO THE ATTORNEYS AND THE  OFFICERS.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW HIGH UP IT  WENT.

WE DON'T KNOW WHO MIGHT HAVE  KNOWN HIGHER UP WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OR WITHIN ANY  OTHER AGENCIES.

WE DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW  MUCH INVESTIGATION WAS GOING INTO IT ON APD'S SIDE WHEN  ALLEGATIONS KIND OF FIRST KIND OF AROSE EARLIER THAT  WERE APPARENTLY VAGUE.

AND, YEAH, WE JUST DON'T  KNOW, LIKE, HOW FAR THIS GOES, AND THAT'S WHAT I  THINK I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE MOST, IS WHERE DOES THIS  STOP.

WHERE DO THESE ALLEGATIONS  LEAD US.

LIKE, WHAT'S -- YEAH, WHO  ALL HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THIS.

>> Jeff: SO THE TIMELINES AND  THE SCOPE AT THIS POINT ARE THE PARTS THAT ARE REALLY,  REALLY STILL FUZZY.

ANOTHER THING I WANT TO  ACKNOWLEDGE RIGHT NOW IS THAT WE KNOW MOST OF WHAT WE  KNOW BECAUSE OF THE WORK OF JOURNALISTS, INCLUDING  YOURSELVES.

SO I WANT TO ASK SORT OF A  JOURNALISM QUESTION.

IN A STORY LIKE THIS THAT IS  SO DANGEROUS, SO SENSITIVE -- I MEAN, WE'RE  TALKING ABOUT THE FEDS INVESTIGATING COPS AND  ATTORNEYS.

AND WITH NOBODY SPEAKING  OFFICIALLY CONFIRMING DETAILS, THINGS LIKE THAT --  AND I WANT BOTH OF YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS -- HOW DO  YOU DECIDE THAT YOU'VE GOT ENOUGH TO PUBLISH ANOTHER  STORY THAT TURNS THE WHEEL ON A STORY LIKE THIS?

WHAT'S YOUR PROCESS TO KNOW THAT YOU CAN PUBLISH  SOMETHING THAT'S TRUE?

>> Reisen: YOU MEAN, LIKE AS  FAR AS IDENTIFYING PEOPLE AND MECHANISMS HAPPENING?

>> Jeff: YES.

>> Reisen: BASICALLY, I THINK  TO BE SURE OF SOMETHING -- YOU KNOW, WE HEAR A LOT OF THINGS  AND WE DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE TRUE OR NOT, AND SOME WAYS IN  WHICH WE'LL FIND OUT IS WE WILL KIND OF CONFIRM THEM  THROUGH, LIKE, BACKGROUND OR OFF THE RECORD WITH OTHERS, TO  KIND OF GET OUR OWN PEACE OF MIND.

BUT HOW WE FOUND OUT ABOUT THESE PEOPLE AND WHO THEY  WERE AND STUFF WAS THROUGH PROPERTY SEARCHES, ONLINE  DATABASES, KIND OF -- WE HAD AN IDEA OF WHERE THE FBI HAD  GONE IN SOME INSTANCES, AND WE LOOKED UP THOSE ADDRESSES  AND WE FOUND OUT, LIKE, WHO WAS THE OWNER OF THOSE  HOMES, AND BASICALLY LIKE FOUND THEIR PHONE NUMBERS  AND CALLED THEM.

SOME OF THEM WE CALLED AND  BASICALLY ASKED AND HAD THEM, THESE OFFICERS, HAD  ONE OF THESE OFFICERS CONFIRM TO US THAT THEY WERE  ON LEAVE AS A RESULT OF THIS INVESTIGATION.

AND THEN EVEN IF YOU PUT THOSE PIECES TOGETHER, WE'RE  LIKE, THE FBI WENT TO THIS HOME AND YOU KNOW THIS  PERSON LIVES AT THIS HOME, YOU STILL GO BACK THROUGH  THE PROPER CHANNELS, EVEN IF IT'S OFF THE RECORD, TO JUST  GET THAT PEACE OF MIND LIKE, YES, THIS IS THE CORRECT  PERSON AND YOU ARE NOT WRONG.

LIKE, THIS IS WHO WAS THE TARGET, THIS IS THE HOUSE  THAT WAS SEARCHED.

AND THAT JUST -- I THINK YOU  JUST NEED THAT SECURITY BLANKET.

EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT IN YOUR HEAD, IT'S NOT LIKE WHAT YOU  KNOW, IT'S WHAT YOU CAN PROVE, AND I THINK YOU JUST  NEED THAT LIKE BACKGROUND SECURITY BLANKET TO GET FROM  A TO B., FROM GETTING TO KNOWING IT, TO PROVING IT  AND PUBLISHING IT.

>> Jeff: AND THAT'S THE OLD  EDITOR LINE OF LIKE, YEAH, GREAT STORY, BETTER IF TRUE.

SO I WANT PEOPLE TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR HERE, YOU GUYS  AREN'T GUESSING, YOU'RE NOT MAKING THINGS UP.

AND YOU JUST DESCRIBED THE WAY IN WHICH YOU WERE ABLE  TO PUBLICLY IDENTIFY THE OFFICERS WHO APPEARED TO BE  TARGETS IN THE INVESTIGATION.

ONE THING THAT'S INTERESTING TO ME IS, THE TWO OF YOU  USED TO BE A TEAM AT THE JOURNAL, AND NOW YOU'RE  COMPETING ON THIS STORY.

ELISE, YOU PUBLISHED THE  NAMES OF THE OFFICERS, AS WELL, BUT YOU GOT THERE IN A  REALLY DIFFERENT FASHION.

WHAT WERE THE BREAD CRUMBS  FOR YOU?

>> Kaplan: FIRST OFF, I WANT  TO SAY, WE'RE KIND OF COMPETING ON THE STORY, BUT I  ALSO THINK THAT, LIKE, COMPETITION MAKES TRANSPARENCY  BETTER MAKES ACCOUNTABILITY BETTER.

SO I THINK WE'RE ALL WORKING FOR THE GREATER GOOD IN THIS  COMPETITION.

I THINK MATT ACTUALLY NAMED  THE OFFICERS FIRST, AND I'M SURE ANYONE WHO WENT THROUGH  THE LIST OF 150 DISMISSED DWI CASES COULD NOTICE THAT  THERE WAS A VERY CLEAR PATTERN.

THOSE FOUR OFFICERS WERE NAMED TIME AND TIME AND TIME  AGAIN.

SOME OF THEM, YOU KNOW,  DOZENS AND DOZENS OF TIMES.

AND SO WE HAD AN IDEA JUST  FROM THAT.

AND THEN WHAT WE DID IS, WE  WENT TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AND ASKED  THEM FOR THE GIGLIO LIST.

DISTRICT ATTORNEYS HAVE TO  KEEP A LIST INTERNALLY, OR PUBLISH IT AS THEY ARE NOW  DOING, TO -- >> Jeff: THANK YOU, BY THE  WAY, FOR MAKING THEM PUBLISH THAT.

>> Kaplan: YOU'RE WELCOME.

ALL IT TOOK WAS A STORY.

SO DISTRICT ATTORNEYS HAVE TO KEEP RECORDS TO SHARE  WITH THE DEFENSE ATTORNEYS ABOUT WHICH OFFICERS THEY  BELIEVE MIGHT HAVE CREDIBILITY ISSUES.

THAT COULD BE THAT THEY'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF LYING IN  THE -- OR THEY'VE BEEN FOUND TO HAVE BEEN LYING IN THE  PAST, THEY HAVE CONCERNING SOCIAL MEDIA.

IT CAN BE ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

BUT IN THIS CASE, AS SOON AS WE SAW THAT THESE FOUR  OFFICERS WERE NAMED ON THE GIGLIO LIST VERY RECENTLY,  AFTER THE INVESTIGATION STARTED, THAT FOR US FELT  ENOUGH TO GO FORWARD WITH IT AND SAY, OKAY, HERE WE HAVE  THE DA SAYING THAT THESE OFFICERS ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY  AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE ON THE LIST AND THAT'S WHY HE  HAD TO DISMISS THE CASES.

SO AT THAT POINT, WE FELT  LIKE WE HAD ENOUGH TO  PUBLISH THEIR NAMES.

>> Jeff: AND THEY'RE RECENT  ADDITIONS TO THE GIGLIO LIST, RIGHT?

>> Kaplan: YEAH.

>> Jeff: THERE ARE LIKE FOUR  NAMES AT THE BOTTOM, SAME NAMES WE'RE SEEING ON THE  DISMISSAL LISTS.

>> Kaplan: YEAH.

>> Jeff: I THINK THAT'S SUPER INTERESTING THAT YOU GUYS GOT  TO THE SAME PLACE, BUT YOU DID IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

LET'S SHIFT GEARS JUST A LITTLE BIT HERE.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION.

AND, IN FACT, THERE ARE TWO INVESTIGATIONS.

SO RIGHT NOW, WE ARE LOOKING AT PARALLEL BUT DIFFERENT  INVESTIGATIONS.

MATT, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT  THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THOSE TWO INVESTIGATIONS, WHO'S  CONDUCTING THEM, AND HOW THE STAKES ARE DIFFERENT, IN  PARTICULAR?

>> Reisen: SO WHAT WE KNOW  FROM APD, ACCORDING TO APD, IS IN DECEMBER 2022, THEY  BASICALLY GOT SOME KIND OF -- AND THIS IS HOW THEIR  INVESTIGATION KIND OF MOLDED TO WHAT IT IS TODAY.

LIKE BASICALLY DECEMBER 2022, THEY GOT A TIP-OFF  THAT SOME KIND OF CORRUPTION/MISCONDUCT WAS  HAPPENING INVOLVING DWI OFFICERS, BUT THEY SAID THEY  HAD THE DETAILS WRONG.

AND IT WAS ALSO VAGUE AND  APPARENTLY IT INVOLVED BARS AND NOT TRAFFIC STOPS  SOMEHOW.

AND SO BASICALLY, THEY TOLD  US THEY STARTED A PRELIMINARY INVESTIGATION TO  SEE IF IT WARRANTED A FULL INTERNAL INVESTIGATION, AND  THEN APPARENTLY -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THERE  EXACTLY, BUT FAST FORWARD TO OCTOBER, AND AS ELISE  REPORTED, YOU KNOW, THIS COURT EMPLOYEE MADE AN  OFFICIAL COMPLAINT AGAINST AN OFFICER ALLEGING, LIKE, A  SIMILAR THING TO WHAT THEY HAD HEARD BEFORE, BUT MORE  DETAILED.

APD HAS SAID THAT THAT  CONNECTED THE DOTS FOR THEM.

WHAT IT ALSO DID WAS, IT  KIND OF -- THE FBI LEARNED ABOUT THIS, AND THEY HAD  BEEN DOING THEIR OWN INVESTIGATION.

AND WE DON'T KNOW HOW LONG.

I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THEY  HAD BEEN INVESTIGATING THIS.

BUT BASICALLY, YOU HAD THE  FBI THEN CALLING APD AND SAYING, HEY, YOU KNOW,  THERE'S THIS INTERNAL COMPLAINT FILED, WE'RE DOING  AN INVESTIGATION ON THIS.

AND, YOU KNOW, BOTH OF THEM,  BOTH AGENCIES, THEY SAID THEY STARTED WORKING  TOGETHER THEN, BUT THEIR INVESTIGATIONS WERE  DIFFERENT.

APD WAS INTERNAL.

THESE OFFICERS ARE ON LEAVE.

OBVIOUSLY THAT COULD LEAD TO  TERMINATIONS, DISCIPLINE.

THE FBI IS A CRIMINAL  INVESTIGATION, WHICH COULD LEAD TO CRIMINAL CHARGES.

I MEAN, THOSE ARE LIKE THE DISTINCT DIFFERENCES BETWEEN  THEM.

>> Jeff: SO OUT STAKES ARE SOMEBODY'S JOB VERSUS  SOMEBODY'S FREEDOM, IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

>> Reisen: YES.

>> Jeff: SO THE IMPACTS HAVE  ALREADY BEEN PRETTY SUBSTANTIAL IN THIS CASE.

WE'VE GOT 150 CASES DISMISSED, WE'VE GOT COPS ON  LEAVE, WE'VE GOT CITY COUNCILORS SAYING THAT THIS  MAY BE THE BIGGEST PUBLIC CORRUPTION SCANDAL IN APD  HISTORY.

THERE'S A LOT GOING ON,  RIGHT.

ONE THING I WANT TO ASK YOU,  ELISE, IS WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM SOURCES AND  READERS ABOUT WHAT THIS DOES FOR CREDIBILITY OF LAW  ENFORCEMENT IN OUR COMMUNITY.

>> Kaplan: YEAH, I THINK IT'S A BLACK EYE.

I THINK THERE'S NO WAY AROUND IT.

EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED YET,  WE KNOW ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT THE FBI IS INVESTIGATING  OFFICERS, AND THE OFFICERS ARE THE ONES YOU WANT NOT TO  BE INVESTIGATED.

>> Jeff: YOU WANT THEM DOING  THE INVESTIGATING.

>> Kaplan: YEAH, YOU WANT THEM  DOING THE RIGHT THING.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S  AUTOMATICALLY GOING TO BE A PROBLEM.

ALSO, THE DEPARTMENT IS UNDER TEN YEARS, AT THIS  POINT, OF A CONSENT DECREE, AND I THINK WE WILL HAVE TO  AT SOME POINT STEP AWAY FROM THIS AND THINK ABOUT, LIKE,  ACCOUNTABILITY SYSTEMS AND KIND OF LIKE WHAT GOT  MISSED, AND ALSO HOW IS THE DEPARTMENT KIND OF POLICING  ITSELF AND INVESTIGATING ITSELF, AS WELL, TO KIND OF  CATCH THESE THINGS EARLIER BEFORE IT BECOMES A CRIMINAL  INVESTIGATION OR BEFORE IT GETS TO WHERE IT DID.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT IN JUST A SECOND, BUT ONE  OF THE BIG THINGS WE DON'T KNOW YET, AND MATT, YOU  ALLUDED TO THIS A SECOND AGO, ARE THE TIMELINES.

IT'S KIND OF OLD HOWARD BAKER LINE FROM THE  WATERGATE ERA.

WHAT DID CHIEF MEDINA KNOW  AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT.

SAME FOR DA BREGMAN.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR US TO KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THOSE  QUESTIONS?

>> Reisen: I MEAN, IT GOES TO  WHAT ELISE SAID ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY.

I MEAN, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HOLD YOUR OFFICERS  ACCOUNTABLE.

THERE ARE SYSTEMS IN PLACE  TO INVESTIGATE THINGS LIKE THIS, AND THERE ARE SYSTEMS  IN PLACE THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO CATCH THINGS LIKE THIS.

AND I MEAN, IT SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE THEY DIDN'T IN THIS  CASE.

BUT I THINK WE NEED TO KNOW  WHO KNEW WHAT, HOW STRONG WHAT THEY KNEW WAS, AND WHAT  THEY DID ABOUT IT.

AND WITHOUT KNOWING THAT, I  CAN'T, LIKE, JUDGE NOW, BUT I THINK THE CARDS ARE GOING  TO FALL SOME TIME AND WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT.

BUT I THINK IT'S JUST HUGE FROM, LIKE, A LEADERSHIP  PERSPECTIVE.

YOU WANT LEADERS TO BE  HOLDING OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE, OR THEIR  PROSECUTORS.

LIKE, WHOEVER.

YOU JUST WANT THERE TO BE STOPGAPS TO NOT HAVE THIS  EVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

AND I THINK IN ADDITION TO  HOLDING LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE, YOU ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE  THAT, WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO NOW TO MAKE SURE THAT,  LIKE, WHATEVER FELL THROUGH THE CRACKS BEFORE, IF THAT'S  WHAT HAPPENED, DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> Jeff: SO THAT SORT OF HINTS AT THE POSSIBILITY OF  POTENTIAL INSTITUTIONAL FAILURE HERE.

I WANT TO END WITH JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA CONTEXT.

FIRST OF ALL, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE ARE NOT  SHOPLIFTING CASES, THESE ARE DWI CASES IN A STATE THAT  HAS A LONG AND TORTURED HISTORY WITH ALCOHOL-RELATED  TRAFFIC FATALITIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, RIGHT.

OFFICERS MISSING COURT OR PRETRIAL INTERVIEWS HAS BEEN  A KNOWN CAUSE FOR THESE CASES TO BE DISMISSED FOR  DECADES.

I WROTE ABOUT THIS BACK IN  2005 WHEN I HAD THE JOB THAT YOU USED TO HAVE AND THAT  MATT HAS NOW AT THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL.

THERE WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN SOME GUARDRAILS PUT IN  PLACE IN THE AFTERMATH OF THOSE STORIES, AND THAT WAS  20 YEARS AGO.

YOU HAD A STORY PUBLISHED  THIS WEEK, ELISE, IN WHICH YOU SORT OF DUG INTO THAT.

WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE IN  PLACE TO CATCH SOMETHING LIKE THIS BEFORE YOU'VE GOT  GUYS IN WINDBREAKERS KICKING PEOPLE'S DOORS DOWN.

>> Kaplan: YEAH.

WELL, FIRST OFF, THANK YOU,  PAST JEFF, FOR WRITING ALL THOSE ARTICLES.

THEY WERE VERY HELPFUL STARTING OFF POINTS, AND I  DID A DEEP DIVE THROUGH ALL OF THEM.

SO BASICALLY WHAT I FOUND IS IN 2007, THERE WAS A REPORT  GIVEN TO THE METRO COURT THAT SAID -- YOU KNOW, IT  LAID OUT A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THEY  COULD ADDRESS THE HIGH DISMISSAL RATES.

BUT THE ONE THAT I WAS MOST INTERESTED IN WAS ONE THAT  SAID, METRO COURT SHOULD MAYBE PUBLISH A LIST OF  CASES WHERE OFFICERS FAILED TO APPEAR AND THEY DISMISSED  THE CASE.

WHEN I ASKED METRO COURT  ABOUT THAT THIS WEEK, THEY SAID THAT, WELL, THE  CRIMINAL JUSTICE PARTNERS DECIDED ULTIMATELY IT WOULD  BE BETTER FOR THE BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S  OFFICE TO BE KIND OF IN CHARGE OF THAT, BECAUSE THE  METRO COURT KIND OF WANTS TO STAY REMOVED FROM IT, THEY  WANT TO BE IMPARTIAL, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO KIND OF  BE IN CHARGE OF THAT PART OF THE PROCESS.

SO IT SEEMS LIKE SINCE THEN, THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S  OFFICE, IF AN OFFICER MISSED A HEARING, THEY WOULD SEND A  FORM E-MAIL, BASICALLY, TO THE DEPARTMENT TO LET THEM  KNOW.

BUT THEN IN 2014, IT CAME  OUT THAT MAYBE THAT SYSTEM WASN'T WORKING VERY WELL.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S HIGH TURN-OVER IN DA OFFICES,  THEY WEREN'T CATCHING EVERYTHING NECESSARILY.

I ALSO DON'T THINK IT REALLY ACCOUNTED FOR OTHER THINGS,  LIKE NOT TURNING OVER DISCOVERY OR NOT ATTENDING  PRETRIAL INTERVIEWS, WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM A  HEARING.

THOSE ARE ACTUALLY PRIVATE  INTERVIEWS WITH ATTORNEYS, AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I  AM NOW.

I'M HOPING TO FIND OUT A LOT  MORE WHAT HAPPENED AFTER 2014.

IT SEEMS LIKE APD WAS SAYING THAT THIS WAS A PROBLEM, BUT  I DON'T KNOW YET IF THERE WERE ANY ANSWERS TO THAT  YET.

I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT APD  WILL HAVE MORE ANSWERS TO THAT SOON, BUT THEY'RE STILL  TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, I GUESS, EXACTLY WHAT THE  PROCESS IS.

BUT IT SEEMS LIKE IT WASN'T  WORKING EFFECTIVELY, IF SUCH A HIGH NUMBER OF CASES  INVOLVING CERTAIN OFFICERS WERE GETTING DISMISSED AND  THAT DIDN'T GET RED FLAGGED.

>> Jeff: ELISE, MATT, I REALLY  APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOUR WORK ON THIS STORY.

I WILL CERTAINLY BE WATCHING AND READING FOR WHAT YOU-ALL  DIG UP NEXT.

THANKS FOR COMING IN.

>> Reisen: THANK YOU.

>> Kaplan: THANKS FOR INVITING US.

>> Lou: THANKS TO JEFF, MATT  AND ELISE FOR THAT DISCUSSION.

UNDERSTANDING HOW CLIMATE  CHANGE CONTINUES TO ALTER NEW MEXICO'S LANDSCAPES CAN  BE A DIFFICULT TASK.

LUCKILY FOR US, WE HAVE  LAURA PASKUS.

JEFF RECENTLY SAT DOWN WITH  LAURA TO DISCUSS HER PLANS FOR 'OUR LAND' THIS YEAR AS  SHE TACKLES ALL THINGS RELATED TO CLIMATE CHANGE  AND ADAPTABILITY.

>> Jeff: LAURA, IT'S REALLY  NICE TO SIT DOWN WITH YOU AND HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT  'OUR LAND' FOR 2024.

THANKS FOR DOING IT.

>> Laura: THANKS JEFF PROCTOR.

>> Jeff: SO I KNOW FROM  CONVERSATIONS THAT WE HAVE HAD KIND OF OVER AND OVER AGAIN,  NOT IN FRONT OF TELEVISION CAMERAS, THAT YOUR IDEA FOR  THE YEAR IS TO REALLY SHIFT THE FOCUS OF YOUR WORK BACK TO  CLIMATE CHANGE.

WHAT SORT OF GOT YOU  THINKING ABOUT DOING THAT  ALONG THOSE LINES?

>> Laura: YEAH.

SO THERE'S SUCH A HUGE GAP BETWEEN WHAT SCIENTISTS ARE  TELLING US WE NEED TO DO -- FOR EXAMPLE, 2023 WAS THE  WARMEST YEAR ON RECORD BY FAR, AND SCIENTISTS KEEP  SAYING WE NEED TO BRING GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS  DOWN TO ZERO.

WE NEED TO BE ACTING VERY  FAST.

AND YET THAT GAP, WHAT  POLITICIANS ARE DOING, WHAT GOVERNMENTS ARE DOING ON AN  INTERNATIONAL, NATIONAL, OR STATE SCALE WERE NOT DOING  AT ALL WHAT SCIENTISTS KEEP TELLING US TO DO.

AND SO FOR ME, FOR THIS PLATFORM, FOR OUR AUDIENCE  IN NEW MEXICO, I FEEL REALLY A MORAL IMPERATIVE TO BE  TALKING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND BIG PICTURE IN REGULAR  WAYS AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, WEEKLY  CONVERSATIONS ABOUT GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS,  ABOUT THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE, ABOUT THE IMPACTS OF  CLIMATE CHANGE ON OUR MENTAL HEALTH, OUR SPIRITUAL  HEALTH.

SO I FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW,  FOR ME AND WHAT I KNOW AND UNDERSTAND IS HAPPENING,  HAVING COVERED THESE ISSUES FOR 20 YEARS, I FEEL LIKE  OUR AUDIENCE DESERVES TO UNDERSTAND CLIMATE CHANGE  BETTER.

>> Jeff: THE MORAL IMPERATIVE  PART CERTAINLY TRACKS, AND IN TERMS OF THE SUBJECT MATTER,  ALL I CAN REALLY SAY IS, OOF.

THAT SOUNDS DARK AND  DEPRESSING.

OF COURSE, YOU'VE NEVER BEEN  SORT OF A HAPPY, FUN TIME JOURNALIST, BUT THAT'S HEAVY  SUBJECT MATTER.

>> Laura: YEAH, I KNOW.

AND, LIKE, IT HURTS.

AS A CLIMATE REPORTER, I  HAVE CERTAINLY HAD MY UPS AND DOWNS OF FEELING LIKE I  CANNOT REPORT ON THESE ISSUES ANY LONGER,  ESPECIALLY WHEN I HEAR AUDIENCE FEEDBACK, YOU KNOW,  FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE PAYING ATTENTION, WHO ARE SAD, WHO  ARE DEPRESSED, WHO FEEL A SENSE OF HOPELESSNESS.

AND REALLY, I FEEL LIKE FOR ME, I'M COMING OUT THE OTHER  SIDE OF THIS.

IT'S MAYBE TAKEN 20 YEARS,  BUT I REFUSE TO GIVE UP ON THIS PLACE THAT I LOVE, AND  I REFUSE TO GIVE UP ON MY COMMUNITY AND THE  COMMUNITIES I LOVE HERE.

SO I THINK IT'S REALLY  IMPORTANT FOR US TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING  AND WHY IT'S HAPPENING AND WHAT'S GOING TO CONTINUE  HAPPENING.

BUT TO BE CONNECTING WITH  OUR PLACES, OUR ECOSYSTEMS, OUR COMMUNITIES AND ONE  ANOTHER, WITH A REAL SENSE OF LOVE AND JOY AND  COMMITMENT, EVEN IF IT'S HARD TO FEEL HOPEFUL, I WILL  NOT GIVE UP ON THIS PLACE, AND I WILL NOT GIVE UP ON  WHAT I KNOW NEW MEXICANS CAN DO WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE  CHANGE.

>> Jeff: LAURA, ONE OF THE  THINGS THAT I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED AND ADMIRED SO MUCH  ABOUT YOUR WORK IS THE INTENTIONALITY WITH WHICH YOU  APPROACH IT.

YOU'RE ALSO INCREDIBLY  ORGANIZED.

I'VE SEEN YOUR CALENDAR FOR  THE YEAR, WHICH MAKES ME FEEL LIKE THE WORK AHEAD IS  GOING TO BE MORE DIFFICULT FOR ME, BECAUSE I'M NOT THAT  ORGANIZED.

BUT I WANT YOU TO TALK A  LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THAT WORKS FOR YOU.

HOW DO YOU DECIDE AND SETTLE?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY FOLLOWING AN ARC OF STORIES  FOR THE COURSE OF A YEAR?

>> Laura: SO FOR A LONG TIME,  I WAS ONE OF ONE, OR ONE OF TWO ENVIRONMENTAL JOURNALISTS  IN THE STATE, AND THAT'S NOT THE CASE ANYMORE.

THERE'S LIKE A REALLY HEALTHY ECOSYSTEM ON THE  MEDIA LANDSCAPE WITH PEOPLE COVERING THE ENVIRONMENT  RIGHT NOW AT SOURCE NEW MEXICO, KUNM, NEW MEXICO  POLITICAL REPORT, SEARCHLIGHT.

OF COURSE, SUSAN MONTOYA BRYAN AT ASSOCIATED PRESS.

LIKE, THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE COVERING THE  DAY-TO-DAY KIND OF ENVIRONMENTAL NEWS.

SO I HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A LUXURY THAT I DIDN'T HAVE IN  THE PAST WHERE I CAN KIND OF LOOK AT THE YEAR AND BE  LIKE, HMMM, WATER SCARCITY, FIRE SEASON, AND KIND OF  FILL OUT THE ARC OF THE YEAR AND TRY TO REALLY PROVIDE  NEW MEXICANS THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED IN A CLIMATE  CHANGE WORLD TO BE DEALING WITH THESE IMPACTS OF  CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> Jeff: I COMPARE YOUR WORK  TO WHAT BILL GRAHAM SAID ABOUT THE GRATEFUL DEAD.

YOU ARE NOT THE BEST AT WHAT YOU DO, YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE  WHO DOES WHAT YOU DO.

SO HOW WILL THE AUDIENCE  FEEL THIS DIFFERENTLY THIS YEAR AS YOU SHIFT INTO THIS  REALLY INTENTIONAL PATH?

>> Laura: YEAH, I HOPE THAT  THE AUDIENCE COMES ALONG WITH ME ON THIS JOURNEY.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME HARD THINGS.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW CLIMATE CHANGE AFFECTS OUR  MENTAL HEALTH.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT  GAP BETWEEN WHAT SCIENTISTS ARE TELLING US WE NEED TO DO  AND WHAT OUR POLITICIANS AND LAWMAKERS AND  DECISION-MAKERS ARE ACTUALLY DOING.

I HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL COME ALONG AND WATCH THESE  SEGMENTS, OR READ OUR NEWSLETTER, OR FOLLOW US ON  SOCIAL MEDIA, AND REALLY TALK TO THEIR FRIENDS AND  FAMILY MEMBERS AND HAVE THESE DEEPER CONVERSATIONS  IN THEIR OWN HOMES.

AND I ALWAYS LOVE HEARING  FROM PEOPLE, WHETHER THAT'S THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA OR  E-MAIL.

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT PEOPLE  ARE FEELING AND SEEING.

IT ISN'T JUST A -- YOU KNOW,  WE'RE A BROADCAST TELEVISION PROGRAM, BUT IT'S NOT JUST  THAT WE BROADCAST OUT.

I WANT TO BE HEARING FROM  PEOPLE, AS WELL.

>> Jeff: LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT  FOR JUST A MOMENT.

OF COURSE WE WILL CONTINUE  TO AIR 'OUR LAND' PIECES ON NEW MEXICO In FOCUS, WHICH  IS INCREDIBLY GRATIFYING FOR ME.

HOW ELSE CAN FOLKS INTERACT WITH YOUR WORK, CONSUME YOUR WORK?

>> Laura: SO AS A PRINT  REPORTER AT HEART, I WILL ALWAYS BE HAPPIEST SORT OF  WRITING WORDS DOWN AND CONNECTING WITH AUDIENCES THAT  WAY THROUGH THE WRITTEN WORD.

SO THEY CAN SUBSCRIBE TO OUR  WEEKLY NEWSLETTER, 'OUR LAND WEEKLY,' AND ALSO FOLLOW US  ON INSTAGRAM.

IT'S 'OUR LAND NM' ON  INSTAGRAM.

WE'VE GOT A YOUTUBE CHANNEL.

YEAH, I THINK THE NEWSLETTER IS A REALLY GOOD WAY TO STAY  ON TOP OF, LIKE, THE LATEST RESEARCH ON CLIMATE, THE  LATEST REPORTING ON CLIMATE, AND KIND OF HOW I TRY TO  CONNECT ALL OF THESE THINGS TOGETHER FOR OUR NEW MEXICO  AUDIENCE.

>> Jeff: WELL, I'M INCREDIBLY  EXCITED ABOUT THE YEAR AHEAD, AS I HAVE BEEN WITH SO MANY  YEARS OF YOUR WORK IN THE PAST.

SO THANKS FOR TALKING ABOUT IT A LITTLE BIT.

>> Laura: THANKS, JEFF.

>> Lou: THANKS AGAIN TO LAURA  AND JEFF FOR THAT DISCUSSION.

WE CLOSE THIS WEEK  REMEMBERING THE LIFE OF ACCLAIMED WRITER  N. SCOTT MOMADAY.

THE PULITZER PRIZE WINNER  DIED LAST MONTH AT HIS HOME IN SANTA FE AT 89.

HE WAS A PIONEER OF NATIVE AMERICAN LITERATURE, AND WE  WANTED TO END THE SHOW TODAY WITH A FEW WORDS ON WRITING  FROM MOMADAY DURING A 2019 INTERVIEW AT THAT SANTA FE  HOME WITH NEW MEXICO IN-FOCUS CORRESPONDENT  RUSSELL CONTRERAS, WHO WAS WORKING FOR THE ASSOCIATED  PRESS AT THE TIME.

>> Momaday: IF YOU WANT TO  WRITE, YOU SHOULD WRITE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT ONE  OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS I CAN ADVISE YOUNG PEOPLE TO  DO IS TO EXERCISE WRITING.

GET SOMETHING DOWN ON PAPER  AND KEEP AT IT UNTIL IT TAKES A LIFE OF ITS OWN,  WHICH IT WILL DO.

>> Lou: THANKS FOR WATCHING.

WE WILL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO  In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.