- Everything that we have seen from the way Elon Musk runs his companies, he really does believe in stripping out cost.

He believes in moving as quickly as possible.

The other sort of interesting question to ask about Musk's intent is that he has absolutely taken this very hard right turn.

(upbeat music) (transition whooshing) - Hello, and welcome to "GZERO World," I'm Ian Bremmer.

And today, we are talking about tech, the Trump administration, and what happens when Silicon Valley's move fast and break things ethos collides with the machinery of the U.S. government.

In a few short weeks, Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency has fired thousands, thousands of federal workers and they've moved to eliminate entire government agencies.

DOGE's actions have faced some pushback from the courts, but Musk says he's just getting started.

Silicon Valley's ethos is move fast and break things, but the government isn't supposed to break.

It's not a tech startup that can pivot its business model, and it can't reboot if a critical function collapses.

So, how does all this shake out?

Is DOGE work the beginning of a necessary restructuring, or will it only inject too much chaos into the government system?

In other words, will a Silicon Valley mindset make or break Washington?

I am joined today by "WIRED" editorial director, Katie Drummond.

Don't worry, I've also got your "Puppet Regime."

- Welcome back to Leaders R Readers, where we get presidents and prime ministers to tell us what books are on their night tables.

- But first, a word from the folks who help us keep the lights on.

- [Narrator 1] Funding for "GZERO World" is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Narrator 2] Every day, all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint (gentle music) and scale their supply chains (gentle music continues) with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com - [Narrator 1] And by... Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... (gentle music) (transition whooshing) (upbeat music) - [Ian] Can the romance last?

Over two months into President Trump's second term, his relationship with Elon Musk still going strong.

Need proof?

Look no farther than Trump's Tesla infomercial, sorry, press event at the White House.

- What is this one, Elon?

- That's the Model Y.

- A Model Y, so I have a lot of information that's put in the price.

$35,000, which is pretty low.

- Yes.

- [Ian] Trump's transformation of the South Lawn and into a Tesla dealership amid the company's tanking stock prices, a clear sign of how entangled their political and business interests have become.

What's good for Elon Musk is good for Donald Trump, and vice versa.

- This man has devoted his energy and his life to doing this, and I think he's been treated very unfairly by a very small group of people.

- The alliance has defied predictions, though not for me, that a relationship between two famously impulsive, mercurial, and attention-loving billionaires is destined to go up in flames.

Instead, Musk is everywhere in the Trump administration, attending cabinet meetings and shaking hands with world leaders and smiling in the Oval Office.

Musk Department of Government efficiency has embedded itself across nearly every federal agency.

The two sat for a joint interview in February with Fox News host, Sean Hannity.

- He's a great person.

He's an amazing person.

He's also a caring person.

- I think President Trump is a good man, and he's, you know... - That's nice.

The way he said that.

- It's a stunning turnaround for two men who once traded public insults and really only got to know each other eight months ago.

But since Musk threw his support behind Trump last July, their interests have very closely aligned.

Musk spent nearly $300 million to boost Trump's campaign, and DOGE is helping the president deliver on his pledge to shatter the deep state, and also giving Musk massive influence over that government restructuring, which has made him the most powerful person in Washington not named Donald Trump.

Of course, money is a feature, not a bug in U.S. politics, and plenty of tycoons historically, from Andrew Carnegie to the Koch brothers, have used their wealth to influence elections.

But Musk isn't your average donor.

He's the world's richest man with direct control over major social media, space travel, auto manufacturing, and satellite communications.

Not a power player, he's a power source.

Now, Trump does have a history of discarding allies once they outlive their usefulness.

Just ask Michael Cohen, or Bill Barr, or Mike Pence.

Long list.

Could Musk be next?

Always possible.

There are a few little cracks in the facade.

Reports of an explosive meeting back in early March where Musk clashed with cabinet officials.

And recent polling that shows half of American's view Musk negatively.

But that's not talking about Trump, who doesn't seem to have any problems with his top informal advisor.

And Musk himself is all-in, risking Tesla's stock price, his reputation, and whatever remains of his contrarian outsider status to prove his loyalty, which is Trump's most valuable currency.

If Musk becomes more trouble than he's worth or seriously jeopardizes the GOP's midterm prospects, maybe there's a chance the alliance could unravel, but I doubt it.

And until then, the state of their union is very strong.

Joining me today to help break down Musk's influence in Washington and big techs bet on the Trump administration, "WIRED" editorial director, Katie Drummond.

(transition whooshing) Kim Drummond, welcome to "GZERO World."

- Thank you for having me.

I'm so happy to be here.

- So much to talk to you about.

I wanna start with DOGE, of course.

- [Katie] Yeah.

- Because it's been the big story, and should it be?

If we focus on all the things over the first couple months of the Trump administration, do you believe that that is the top story?

- I absolutely, I do.

I mean, look, there is so much for a journalist to be covering right now, and there is so much happening on a daily basis, right?

It's this constant stream of Trump-imposed, Trump-induced chaos, and we see that playing out everywhere, right?

We see it playing out with immigration, we see it playing out with tariffs.

But with DOGE, we are looking at and talking about the manifestation of what does it mean to have the richest person in the world arm in arm with the president, enacting his ideal scenario, sort of what Elon Musk thinks needs to happen within the entire apparatus and infrastructure of the federal government.

I mean, we are talking about every federal agency that supports and sustains this entire country.

So, in the context of DOGE, you might say, "Well, we're talking about, you know, what, 100 people work for DOGE, give or take, you know, they're doing this, they're doing that.

It's being sort of rebuffed in the courts.

Should anyone be concerned about this?"

Well, of course you should.

I mean, we're talking about Elon Musk who essentially paid his way into the White House, now taking a machete, or a hacksaw, or a chainsaw, or whatever sort of violent metaphor you want to use, to the infrastructure that underpins this country.

So, yes, it's a huge story.

- Is it fair to say that this is a revolutionary effort?

- Without a doubt.

I mean, I think that you're spot on.

We have never, at least in any sort of American history that I'm familiar with that almost 40 years of age, seen this kind of rapid attempt to dismantle the federal government.

I mean, the federal infrastructure.

We have seen in recent weeks, in recent months, you know, entire federal agencies effectively being dismantled.

I mean, Elon Musk is trying to overthrow the federal government as we know it.

So, there is absolutely sort of this revolutionary undercurrent that we are seeing play out.

And even when, you know, at "WIRED," we've reported on some of the recruiting efforts that went into trying to bring young technologists into DOGE, right?

So, this was playing out on message boards, forums, for alumni in particular, or intern alumni of Elon Musk's companies.

And the messaging that was being sent out was, you know, "Come and save the United States.

Come and rescue this country."

I mean, the language that these individuals have used to recruit into this effort suggests that even they themselves see this in revolutionary terms.

Now, whether that revolution is for good or for ill, obviously, depends on who you ask.

If you ask, you know, the individuals working for DOGE, if you ask Elon Musk, they're doing the right thing.

They are undertaking a revolution to save the United States.

If you ask any of the civil servants or the federal workers who've lost their jobs in recent weeks, or, you know, many of the individuals that we've spoken to at "WIRED," there is a deep, deep, deep sense of concern of dread that this revolutionary effort will destroy so much of what powers this country.

- So, let's first talk about what it is they are trying to do, because, I mean, publicly, what we hear is they want to reduce cost.

- Right.

- They want to improve efficiency.

And they certainly want to undermine the so-called deep state, those who are weaponized or politicized against Trump and against the series of political leaders.

If you needed to prioritize those efforts, as you've seen them so far, as well as add any others that you see them engaged in, how would you describe that to our audience?

- So, Elon Musk has publicly stated repeatedly, right?

That the federal government is a sort of a rampant cesspool of fraud, of waste, of corruption, of abuse, right?

So, ostensibly, the goals of DOGE are to go into these federal agencies and root all of that out.

So, when we look at what they are actually doing, I would describe it as, first, sort of an attempt to access as much data as possible.

So, we have seen DOGE operatives, whether they're going into, you know, the treasury or the Social Security Administration, making, you know, attempts to access sensitive systems, right?

So, within the treasury it was, you know, the system that pays out several trillions of dollars on an annual basis, they were trying to sort of access that system.

They wanted access to look at all that data and they wanted access to actually modify all of that data.

Same goes for social security, right?

They're looking to access the systems that provide information on, you know, every person who's ever tried to obtain a social security number.

So, they are engaged in this widespread effort to obtain and amass and sort of collate as much data and information from within these agencies as they possibly can.

So, that's sort of what I would describe as step 1.

Step 2 is they are, as you stated, and as as Musk has sort of stated publicly, they are attempting to strip as much cost as possible out of these agencies, from what we can tell.

So, we see that play out in, you know, these layoffs that have sort of swept across the federal government in the last few months, right, with tens of thousands of federal workers losing their jobs.

We have seen it play out with USAID, right?

Where all of a sudden, you know, millions of dollars in federal, in grants, in, you know, humanitarian aid was essentially just kneecapped, right?

If it was just cut off.

So, they are attempting to basically sort of throttle federal agencies and their ability to spend money.

We also saw this play out, as "WIRED" has reported in a few instances, where DOGE actually shut off government credit cards.

So, so what we are seeing is, I would say, there's one piece of it that is, you know, accumulating and accessing as much data as possible.

And then the sort of second piece of it, I would say, is to strip as much cost out of federal agencies as rapidly as possible.

So, when we talk about impact and sort of the biggest thing or the most significant thing that DOGE has done over the next several months, I think we will see the impact of that kind of access, right?

We know that they have access to this data.

- What might that mean and what can one do with that?

- Well, I mean, we have certainly talked to experts who are speculating, right, that in amassing access to all of this data on Americans and on non-citizens who have attempted to, you know, live and work in the United States, well, think about what you could do if you were able to access all of that data, maybe apply AI and automation to examine that data, that you are then able to potentially do very damaging things with that information at the behest of the president, at the behest of, you know, the Department of Defense, the Department of Homeland Security.

I mean, when you juxtapose, I think what we're seeing with deportations, what we're seeing with detentions at the border, we have been told that the risk of DOGE and Musk and Trump having this kind of access, right, this unmitigated unfettered access, well, you could use that information in any kind of sort of specific targeted way towards individuals whose politics you don't like, whose work you're not a fan of, right?

Maybe who you want to audit, maybe you wanna make their life particularly difficult.

If you have DOGE operatives able to access and play around with that data and that information, that then opens you up to a whole new world of risk that I don't think even I have completely wrapped my mind around, certainly that I don't think the American people have wrapped their minds around.

Now, transparency, as far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been very much of it.

So, other than sort of what journalists are learning about what DOGE is doing, we're not entirely sure what kind of access they do and don't have.

- Do we have any view at this point, any educated view on intent?

Because so much of this, it's not just about capabilities.

You're talking about speculating what they might do given access to that data.

- Yeah.

- Do you have any view on Elon's intent in how it aligns with, and perhaps is different from that of President Trump?

- I have two educated guesses on this.

There's one that I think is sort of more superficial, which is everything that we have seen from the way Elon Musk runs his companies, from the way he took over Twitter and turned it into X, that entire playbook now playing out within the federal government, he really does believe in stripping out cost.

He believes in moving as quickly as possible.

He really- - He fired people at Twitter, like immediately- - Immediately.

- Large numbers.

Everyone said it was gonna break, turned out it was fine, but nonetheless, massive.

- [Katie] Relatively fine.

- [Ian] Yes.

- [Katie] You tell me if you think that's a better user experience than it used to be.

We could debate about that.

- We certainly can.

- But the company still- - But it didn't fall apart, the point - Is didn't fall apart.

- Yeah.

- So, fundamentally, I think that he thinks that he is taking that sort of Silicon Valley Elon Musk playbook, applying it to the federal government.

He thinks he is...

He genuinely thinks and his intention is to do exactly what he says, root out fraud, cut costs, eliminate waste, strip the federal workforce down exponentially, right?

Sort of just take this thing down to the studs, automate it.

That is certainly one piece of the intent.

I think the other sort of deeper and maybe more pernicious and interesting question to ask about Musk's intent, and this is something I've thought a lot about, is that he has absolutely taken this very hard right turn, right?

He has adopted what I would describe as, you know, extremist far-right political views.

I mean, we see it on his X account on a daily basis.

And so I do think that when we talk about intent, I think it would be superficial of me to just say, "Well, he wants to strip the government to the studs and automate everything," because I do think there is this ideological underpinning to all of this where it seems like he really does want to see the United States and the world take a harder right turn with regards to things like diversity.

You know, all of his comments on DEI, with regards to transgender rights.

You know, that sort of permeates so much of what he says publicly.

And I would be surprised if we didn't see that play out through DOGE's efforts and Musk's efforts in the government.

- So, I've certainly appreciate you explaining that.

We've certainly seen in terms of his posts on X, the accounts that he engages with and personally promotes, the support of that ideology.

That's very clear.

Have we any evidence at this point that you can point to that of actions that he or DOGE has taken that would say, "I see how this ideology is playing out in his direct influence in the government."

- At this point, and as far as I can recall, and let me caveat by saying it has been a wild few months, I cannot think of a specific example that I could point to, but I do think it's important to introduce that idea early, right?

Because I would hate to be flatfooted in six months when all of a sudden we are seeing DOGE and Musk take actions that reflect that ideology within government and we weren't ready to anticipate it.

- So, mistrust but verify is what you're basically saying.

- Absolutely.

- Okay, fair enough.

So, a lot of people, I am not one of them, believe that Trump and Musk, two huge egos, aren't gonna be able to get along for very long.

Talk a little bit about the relationship, as you have seen it, between these two men that are spending an awful lot of time together.

- Awful lot of time together.

You know, Elon Musk's children, his son, I mean, have been photographed now several times with the president.

I mean, they are one big happy family on Air Force One, from what we can tell.

You know, everything I have seen, everything we know, they get along great.

Trump seems to really like the guy.

I can't say the same for people in Trump's inner circle from everyone we have talked to in and around the administration.

- Well sure.

Because he's pushing him aside to a degree, right?

- That same fond- - It's not easy if you're Marco, yeah.

- That same fondness is not shared.

But I think that Trump sees in Musk someone, one, with, you know, a very large checkbook and a willingness to write many, many checks and sort of bankroll Trump and the GOP indefinitely.

- Not to mention, a megaphone.

- Of course, absolutely.

And a megaphone, you know, on social media.

And, you know, from everything we can tell, he seems to think that Musk is a really smart, interesting guy.

- So, there's no reason to believe, and you're someone that's covering this very, very closely, that this relationship isn't for the duration.

- I would predict as of now, that we see this continue indefinitely.

I mean, I see no road to this relationship ending.

It seems like things are going very well for the two of them interpersonally.

- Let's think about technology, generally speaking.

You saw an awful lot of technologists that were sitting on the dais behind Trump during the inauguration.

What do you see, as someone who runs "WIRED," which is the most important magazine in this space, right?

How's technology and technologists, how are they changing?

- Complicated.

If I could give you a big picture answer.

I think the big picture answer is reflected in these photos that we saw at the inauguration, right?

Which is how is the technology industry changing?

Well, I think that not only are they saying, "We're going to work with this administration," which sure, you run a massive technology company, you need to work with the federal government, you need to work with who's in office.

But not only are they acknowledging that, I think they're going a step further in some cases and saying, "Well, but I'm also gonna use this administration and the tools I have at my disposal to meet my own end goal."

So, I think Sam Altman is a really good example of this, right?

Sam Altman is, I think, a sort of a notoriously, intelligent is maybe the wrong word, strategic, and, you know, perhaps manipulative leader of a technology company.

I think this has been reported many, many times before.

You know, he knows how to work a room.

He knows how to play to get what he wants.

He was, you know, very receptive to a Trump administration on social media.

He wrote a check for $1 million for the president's inauguration.

He attended the event.

And I think what, a day later, two days later, he's standing with Donald Trump announcing a massive infrastructure plan to build out, you know, AI data centers across the United States.

Sam Altman is similar to Mark Zuckerberg, I think, very willing to sort of turn the screws and play the game to facilitate their financial success.

So, I think we are seeing it sort of play out across the spectrum.

I don't wanna lump all of big tech into one category, but we are absolutely seeing a very different version of these companies and these leaders than we did in 2016.

I think there's an example that I come back to a lot because I thought it was such a pointed example, of Airbnb, Brian Chesky, CEO of that company.

I remember during the first Trump administration, they took a very hard line around Trump's comments regarding immigrants, you know, people from garbage countries.

I mean, all of this just awful rhetoric.

They designed an entire advertising campaign based on those comments.

Brian Chesky himself came out and said, "The president is on the wrong side of history."

I mean, they were very forceful- - It's inconceivable he'd do that right now, right?

- Shocking.

I mean, we at "WIRED," I will tell you- - That's correct, right?

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- Oh, it's not gonna happen.

- Right.

- And we are told repeatedly in our reporting, when we reach out to these companies, they don't wanna talk about politics.

Don't ask.

No comment.

We have nothing to say.

I mean, there are very few technology executives right now who are even willing to open their mouths about what is going on in the Trump administration.

- So, that makes me want to ask you about you, and I mean "WIRED" broadly.

I mean, as I see the investigative journalism that you and your writers are leading, as I look at the stories that you are uncovering and writing about.

It's obviously, in many cases, quite oppositional.

I wonder what kind of pushback you are feeling, how that is changing your mission, to the extent that you feel like there are some stories that are actually really too hot for you to engage in because it would risk blowback, either from advertisers or directly for your ability to continue to function.

How do you think about that?

- We are completely independent journalists in media.

We do our jobs every day.

We have felt no pressure from the Trump administration.

I think the only pressure we feel is self-imposed.

Call me again in a month, right?

I mean, we are very early in this administration.

I think we are eyes-wide-open about potential risks, and we spend a lot of time talking about potential risks.

We wanna be prepared for any situation that might arise.

But as of this moment, you know, I'm gonna finish this interview, I'm gonna go top outta the story, and we're gonna publish it.

I mean, that's what we're gonna do today.

- Katie Drummond, thanks for joining us today.

- Thank you for having me.

(transition whooshing) (gentle music) (transition glitching) (gentle music continues) (transition whooshing) - And speaking of tech billionaires and politicians rewriting the rules, what happens when they try reading instead?

Time to find out what world leaders are putting on their bookshelves.

I've got your "Puppet Regime."

- Welcome back to Leaders R Readers, where we get presidents and prime ministers to tell us what books are on their night tables.

Let's start with Russian President, Vladimir Putin.

I'm reading "Eat, Pray, Love," but Russian translation is Invade, Annex, and Laugh.

- Ha, the only person laughing about that is JD Vance.

Okay, what are you reading Mr. Musk?

- So, I've actually been reading "What to Expect When You Are Expecting."

And Expecting, and Expecting, and Expecting.

It was a pretty funny joke.

Why are you laughing?

- Ha, right, I get it.

So, many more of you coming down the pike.

Great.

How about you, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman?

- "Intermezzo."

- You're reading Sally Rooney?

- Uh, yeah.

It's a powerfully subtle look at the nuances of sexual morality amongst the Irish middle classes.

- This modernizing Saudi Arabia thing is getting weird fast.

All right, one last one.

President Trump, what are you reading?

- I have been reading a very great book.

It's called "The Art of the Deal."

It's just whoever wrote this is some kind of genius.

I mean, it's... Hey, Jared, who wrote this- - [Narrator 3] "Puppet Regime" - That's our show this week.

Come back next week.

If you like what you see, or even if you don't, but you wanna move fast and break things just like us, why don't you come check us out at gzeromedia.com?

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) (upbeat music continues) (upbeat music continues) (gentle music) - [Narrator 1] Funding for "GZERO World" is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Narrator 2] Every day, all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint (gentle music) and scale their supply chains (gentle music continues) with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com - [Narrator 1] And by... Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... (gentle music) (gentle music)