The State of Drug Policy in New York

Season 2023 Episode 44 | 26m 46sVideo has Closed Captions

State Senate Cannabis Hearing, History of Drug Policy in NYS, the science of Opioids

Aired 11/03/2023

The State of Drug Policy in New York

Season 2023 Episode 44 | 26m 46sVideo has Closed Captions

State Senate Cannabis Hearing, History of Drug Policy in NYS, the science of Opioids

Aired 11/03/2023

Problems with Closed Captions? Closed Captioning Feedback

New York NOW is a local public television program presented by WMHT

The State of Drug Policy in New York

Season 2023 Episode 44 | 26m 46sVideo has Closed Captions

State Senate Cannabis Hearing, History of Drug Policy in NYS, the science of Opioids

Aired 11/03/2023

Problems with Closed Captions? Closed Captioning Feedback

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[MUSIC] >> ON THIS WEEK'S EDITION OF NEW YORK NOW... WE'LL SPEAK WITH A MARIJUANA DISPENSARY OPERATOR IN THE SOUTHERN TIER, WHO TESTIFIED AT A RECENT STATE SENATE HEARING IN ALBANY AND HAS SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT THE LAWS AND REGULATIONS SHAPING NEW YORK'S SLOWLY EVOLVING RETAIL MARKET. AND LATER IN THE SHOW, IN LIGHT OF NEW SPENDING RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE STATE'S OPIOID SETTLEMENT FUND ADVISORY BOARD, WE'RE GOING TO SHARE TWO EXCERPTS FROM OUR SPECIAL SERIES ON OPIOIDS IN NEW YORK.

I'M DAVE LOMBARDO AND THIS IS NEW YORK NOW.

WELCOME TO THIS WEEK'S EDITION OF NEW YORK NOW.

I'M DAVID LOMBARDO - FILLING IN FOR DAN CLARK. BACK IN 2021, DEMOCRATIC STATE LAWMAKERS AND THEN-GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO, SIGNED OFF ON LEGISLATION ALLOWING FOR THE LEGAL CONSUMPTION OF MARIJUANA BY ADULTS, AND PAVED THE WAY FOR NEW YORK TO ESTABLISH A RETAIL MARIJUANA MARKET. THE ENSUING TWO AND A HALF YEARS AS THE STATE HAS WORKED TO BUILD OUT THAT RETAIL MARKET HAS BEEN MARRED BY DELAYS, CONTROVERSY AND UNMET EXPECTATIONS. THE PROCESS WAS INITIALLY DELAYED BY A FAILURE TO APPOINT STATE REGULATORS, WHO ONCE IN PLACE STRUGGLED TO KEEP PACE WITH THEIR VAST ARRAY OF OBLIGATIONS, WHICH INCLUDE OVERSIGHT OF THE EXISTING MEDICAL MARIJUANA LANDSCAPE AND ALL THE ELEMENTS OF A RETAIL MARKET INCLUDING GROWING, PROCESSING, AND SELLING MARIJUANA. AT THE END OF 2022, THE FIRST LEGAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARY OPENED IN NEW YORK, AND DESPITE GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL PREDICTING LAST YEAR THAT THE STATE WOULD OPEN UP ABOUT 20 NEW RETAIL SHOPS A MONTH THERE ARE ONLY ABOUT TWO DOZEN LEGAL RETAILERS IN ALL OF THE EMPIRE STATE, WHILE ILLEGAL DISPENSARIES HAVE FLOURISHED, MAKING UP MORE THAN 95 PERCENT OF THE SHOPPING OPTIONS FOR MARIJUANA CONSUMERS. THE STATE'S EFFORT TO OPEN MORE DISPENSARIES HAS BEEN UNDERMINED BY LAWSUITS, LIMITED ACCESS TO CAPITAL, AND BURDENSOME REGULATIONS FROM THE HOCHUL ADMINSTRATION. FOR THOSE SHOPS THAT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO OPEN, THOUGH, THERE ARE STILL OBSTACLES, INCLUDING STRICT LIMITATIONS ON ADVERTISING AND HIGHLY-TAXED MARIJUANA PRODUCTS, WHICH PUT THEIR BUSINESSES AT A DISADVANTAGE, COMPARED TO THE ILLEGAL DISPENSARIES. ALL OF THIS, AND MUCH MORE, WAS THE SUBJECT OF A STATE SENATE HEARING IN ALBANY EARLIER THIS WEEK. ONE OF THE WITNESSES IN THE NINE-HOUR HEARING WAS DAMIEN CORNWELL, WHO SERVES ON THE BOARD FOR THE CANNABIS ASSOCIATION OF NEW YORK AND IS THE OPERATOR OF THE JUST BREATHE MARIJUANA DISPENSARY IN THE SOUTHERN TIER. WE SPOKE REMOTELY WITH DAMIEN, EARLIER THIS WEEK ABOUT THE HEARING AND WHAT SHOULD COME NEXT FOR STATE POLICYMAKERS HERE AT THE STATE CAPITAL.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, DAMIEN.

>> HOW ARE YOU, DAVE?

I'M GRATEFUL TO BE HERE.

>> IT'S A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOUR EXPERTISE.

SO YOU BEGAN YOUR TESTIMONY AT THE RECENT SENATE HEARING IN ALBANY BY TALKING ABOUT THE THC POTENCY TAX ON MARIJUANA, WHICH IS A COMPLEX SYSTEM AT THE WHOLESALE LEVEL AND ULTIMATELY BUILT INTO THE PRICE PAID BY THE CONSUMER.

WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT THIS MODEL BASED ON THE LAST YEAR OF RETAIL MARIJUANA SALES AS WELL AS THE EXPERIENCE IN YOUR OWN SHOP.

>> THE ISSUE WITH THE POTENCY TAX IS THIS, BECAUSE IT'S APPLIED AT WHOLESALE LEVEL, WHAT'S HAPPENING IS A CULTIVATOR WOULD GIVE ME SOMETHING, THEY'LL ADD THE POTENCY TAX TO IT, THEN THAT COST IS BAKED INTO THE CAKE WHEN THE GOODS ARRIVE TO ME.

SO TO COVER THAT, WE PASS THAT ON TO THE CUSTOMER.

WHAT'S WRONG IS, AND KIND OF UNFAIR, IS THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY TAXING THE TAX AT THE CUSTOMER LEVEL.

SO WHEN THE CUSTOMER GETS AN ITEM AT THE REGISTER, $50 ITEM, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE MIGHT BE $10 OF TAX THAT'S ACTUALLY TAXED AGAIN WITH AN EXCISE TAX.

AND THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS, WHEN YOU'RE COMPETING WITH THE ILLICIT MARKET, DAVE, IT MAKES IT SO THE PRODUCTS ARE OVERPRICED.

AND SO PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY DRAWN TO THE ILLICIT MARKET THAT ARE LOOKING TO BUY BASED ON PRICE, AND THAT'S WHY THAT POLICY HAS TO CHANGE.

>> WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE THAT WOULD BOTH MAXIMIZE TAX REVENUE AS WELL AS BE SOMETHING THAT A BUSINESS CAN EASILY IMPLEMENT YET STILL PRODUCE A PRODUCT THAT IS COMPETITIVE WHILE THERE IS SUCH A PROLIFIC ILLICIT MARKET?

>> MASSACHUSETTS HAS SOMETHING, THEY HAVE A TAX ON THE RETAIL SIDE.

AND THEN WHEN YOU DO THAT, WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU COULD SELL ME YOUR PRODUCT, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR FOUR BUCKS AND THEN I MARK IT UP TO EIGHT BUCKS, AND THEN AT THE END OF THAT, THEN THERE'S JUST A LARGER RETAIL TAX, AND THAT REVENUE THEN COULD GO TO THE STATE.

THE ISSUE WITH THE POTENCY TAX IS NOT ONLY IS IT DOUBLED AND PEOPLE ARE TAXING THE TAX, BUT IT'S ALSO DIFFICULT FOR CULTIVATORS AND PROCESSORS TO CALCULATE THAT, RIGHT, BECAUSE SOMETIMES WHEN GOODS AND SERVICES THEY CREATE ARE NOT EXACTLY RIGHT ON THE BUTTON IN TERMS OF HOW MANY MILLIGRAMS OF THC, THAT HAS TO BE CALCULATED DOWN TO THE VERY, VERY MINUTE NUMBER, AND THEN SOMETIMES PAYING THE TAX IS VERY DIFFICULT TO TRACK AT THE PRODUCTION LEVEL, AT THE WHOLESALE LEVEL.

IT WOULD REALLY MAKE MORE SENSE IF IT WAS AT THE RETAIL SIDE OF IT ONLY AND THEN THAT WAY IT WOULD BE EASY TO CONTROL, EASY TO COLLECT.

AND I STILL THINK YOU COULD ENFORCE IT FROM THAT SIDE OF IT.

THE MISNOMER THAT YOU CAN ONLY DO ENFORCE IT FROM THE WHOLESALE SIDE IS NOT CORRECT.

MOST OF THOSE THINGS HAPPEN AT THE RETAIL SIDE.

THINK ABOUT IT, IF YOU GROW 100,000 POUNDS OF MARIJUANA, YOU WOULDN'T PAY TAXES ON IT UNTIL I SOLD IT, CORRECT?

DOESN'T THAT MAKE THE MOST SENSE, AS OPPOSED TO THE OTHER WAY AROUND, WHICH IS, BEFORE IT EVEN GETS SOLD, THE CULTIVATORS ARE BILLED THIS HUGE TAX AMOUNT AND THEN WE GET 30 DAYS TO PAY THEM.

SO THE THIRD PROBLEM, RIGHT, WE TALKED ABOUT, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT WHAT IT DOES TO THE CUSTOMER AND THE FACT THAT IT'S EASIER TO CALCULATE IF WE DO IT ON THE RETAIL SIDE, BUT, THIRDLY, IT MAKES IT BETTER IN THE SENSE THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO FRONT THE COST FOR THE GOODS AND SERVICES THAT THEY'RE SHIPPING TO THE RETAIL ARM OF THE SUPPLY CHAIN.

>> DURING YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU ALSO TOOK ISSUE WITH THE STATE'S PACKAGING AND MARKETING REGULATIONS, WHICH GOVERNED MARIJUANA RETAILERS LIKE YOURSELF AND THE PRODUCTS YOU SELL.

WHAT'S THE ISSUE THERE?

ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO THE EXPERIENCE OF THE ILLEGAL DISPENSARIES?

>> LET'S JUST UNPACK THIS.

I THINK THE STATE WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE LEGISLATING DOWN TO THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR OF INFLUENCE TO THE YOUTH DEMOGRAPHIC.

THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T ATTRACT YOUNGER PEOPLE IN THE MARKET.

HOWEVER, SOME OF THESE POLICIES THAT THEY HAVE IN PLACE ARE SO RESTRICTIVE, IT'S ACTUALLY PUSHING THE YOUTH TO THE ILLICIT MARKET WHERE THEY CAN ADVERTISE FREELY.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN'T PUT UP A NEON SIGN.

WE CAN'T ADVERTISE ON RADIO AND TV.

WE CAN'T DO MANY, MANY THINGS TO ATTRACT PEOPLE TO THE BUSINESS.

IN SOME WAYS, IT ALMOST FEELS LIKE WE'RE THE ILLICIT OPERATOR WHEN YOU GO DOWN THE BLOCK IN ANY MAJOR CITY IN NEW YORK, AND YOU'LL SEE TONS AND TONS OF ILLICIT OPERATORS AND THEY HAVE SIGNS AND LIGHTS AND IN SOME WAYS IT ALMOST MAKES IT LOOK LIKE THE COMMON PASSERBY THAT THAT'S THE LEGAL SHOP AND WE'RE NOT LEGAL.

THE BEST DETERRENCE TO ILLICIT MARKET WOULD BE A THRIVING LEGAL MARKET, BUT HOW CAN WE COMPETE IF WE CAN'T HAVE THE SAME TOOLS TO ADVERTISE AND GET THE WORD OUT THAT, HEY, THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN FIND SAFE TESTED RELIABLE PRODUCTS IN THE NEW YORK MARKET.

THEY SHOULD BE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO HELP US PROPAGATE THAT MESSAGE WITHIN OUR COMMUNITIES.

>> SO DOES THAT MEAN REGULATING MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES THE SAME WE MIGHT REGULATE ALCOHOL SALES OR SHOULD THEY BE AS RESTRICTIVE AS, SAY, CIGARETTE SALES?

>> I THINK THE MODEL THAT PEOPLE TRIED TO FOLLOW AT THE STATE LEVEL WAS ALCOHOL.

I USED TO OWN A BAR IN MY EARLIER LIFE WE COULD DO BRAND ACTIVATIONS WITH PRODUCTS LIKE CIROC OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE AND THE DISTRIBUTOR WOULD COME DOWN AND ACTUALLY THROW AN EVENT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT THEY'RE ROLLING OUT.

WE WOULD ADVERTISE IT ON RADIO.

WE'D ADVERTISE IT IN A MULTITUDE OF WAYS.

THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO RIGHT NOW IN RETAIL DISPENSARIES.

AND WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT. THE OTHER THING THAT'S IMPORTANT IS RECENTLY THE OCM DISALLOWED OUR ABILITY TO DO EDUCATION EVENTS AT THE RETAIL DISPENSARIES, AND I JUST THINK THAT'S COUNTERINTUITIVE TO ANYTHING WE'D WANT TO DO TO ADVANCE OUR MARKET.

WE SHOULD BE BRINGING IN CULTIVATORS INTO THE LICENSED STORES AND LETTING THEM MEET THE COMMUNITY MEMBERS THAT ARE BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS.

WHAT BETTER WAY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THESE ARE THE RIGHT BRANDS YOU SHOULD BE USING AND THEN HAVING YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED BY EXPERTS THAT ACTUALLY CREATE THE PRODUCTS.

IT'S A REAL INTIMATE WAY TO CREATE VALUE IN YOUR COMMUNITY.

AND I JUST THINK THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS MISSED WHEN THEY MADE THAT DECISION.

THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE CHANGED BACK, IN MY OPINION.

>> PIVOTING TO ANOTHER SIDE OF THE MARIJUANA MARKETPLACE, IN ORDER TO HELP THE INITIAL WAVE OF MARIJUANA DISPENSARY OWNERS GET THEIR OPERATIONS UP AND RUNNING, THE STATE SET UP A LOAN PROGRAM WHICH ONE OF YOUR FELLOW PANELISTS AT THE SENATE HEARING DESCRIBED AS PREDATORY.

DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THE LOANS THAT HAVE BEEN DISTRIBUTED FROM THE SOCIAL EQUITY FUND, WHICH I BELIEVE HAD A 13% INTEREST RATE >> BY THE GRACE OF GOD, I WAS ACTUALLY ABLE TO SELF-FUND, BUT A LOT OF THINGS I'VE HEARD ABOUT THOSE PROGRAMS THAT CAME THROUGH DASNY ARE DISHEARTENING.

I THINK, WITHOUT LOOKING INTO THE PARTICULARS, JUST LOOK AT THE END RESULT.

WE'VE GOT 70 STORES OPENED AND YET WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE THAT WERE LICENSED.

SO CLEARLY THERE MUST BE A DISCONNECT RIGHT IN TERMS OF THE AVAILABILITY OF MONEY AND THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THOSE PLANS.

I THINK THAT AS THAT FELLOW TALKED ABOUT IN THE TESTIMONY, SOME OF HIS LOAN TERMS, I MEAN, YOU AND I BOTH WOULDN'T ACCEPT THAT IN OUR EVERYDAY LIFE.

THERE'S JUST NO WAY WE COULD PAY BACK 15% ON A MILLION DOLLARS LOAN WHEN WE MAY HAVE ONLY NEEDED $150,000 TO DO THE BUILDOUT.

SO IT'S TOUGH TO SAY I'VE NEVER ACTUALLY HAD ONE OF THE CONTRACTS IN MY HAND.

BUT FROM THE THINGS I'VE HEARD AROUND THE WAY AND ESPECIALLY IN THE TESTIMONY I HEARD THE OTHER DAY IT BREAKS MY HEART.

I THINK THESE PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY READY TO GO BUT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S TOO MANY BARRIERS THAT PREVENT THEM FROM ACTUALLY ENTERING THE MARKETPLACE.

IF WE CAN GET THAT FIXED, IT WOULD SERVE US WELL.

>> IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS, THE STATE, I WOULD SAY, IS FOCUSED MORE ON SHUTTING DOWN ILLEGAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES WHICH ACCOUNT FOR PROBABLY 90% OF THE RETAIL OPTIONS IN NEW YORK, DEPENDING ON THE ESTIMATES YOU GET.

DESPITE THESE EFFORTS, THOUGH, THE ILLEGAL OPERATIONS REMAIN QUITE PREVALENT.

DURING THE HEARING, A COUPLE OF STATE OFFICIALS MADE THE CASE FOR INCREASING CRIMINAL PENALTIES FOR ILLEGAL MARIJUANA SALES.

ARE YOU OKAY WITH THAT EVEN THOUGH THE LEGALIZATION MOVEMENT IS REALLY ROOTED IN THE IDEA THAT MARIJUANA SHOULD BE DECRIMINALIZED AND IS A PUSHBACK TO THE DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT ON THE WAR ON DRUGS, PARTICULARLY ON PEOPLE OF COLOR >> YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

CORRECT?

RIGHT?

IN EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO IN LIFE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, SHUTTING DOWN THE STORES IS A GOOD IDEA, BUT IT'S NOT WORKING IF GUYS CAN JUST PAY A FINE AND OPEN THE NEXT DAY OR OPEN THE NEXT WEEK OR THROW UP ANOTHER LLC, GET ANOTHER LOCATION, OPEN AGAIN AND THEN OCM HAS TO CHASE THEM DOWN FOR TWO MONTHS AND SHUT THEM DOWN AGAIN. SO WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THERE HAS TO BE A HIGHER LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY HOWEVER WE DO THAT TO HELP THE LEGAL MARKET GROW.

AND I JUST BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN WALK AND CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME.

I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE TO ATTACK PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING IN CANNABIS, AND I DON'T THINK IT HAS TO BE FAIR AND UNJUST.

BUT I THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS FOR A MULTIPLE -- FOR A PERSON THAT HAS MULTIPLE OFFENSES.

I'M SORRY.

AND THEN THAT WAY THERE WOULD BE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY AND A TRUE DETERRENT.

RIGHT NOW, MONEY IS NOT A TRUE DETERRENT.

SOME OF THESE ILLICIT SHOPS IN SMALL TOWNS ARE MAKING $400,000 A MONTH AND NONE OF THAT MONEY IS GOING BACK INTO THE COFFERS OF THE STATE TO HELP THE COMMUNITIES IN WHICH THEY'RE TRANSACTING.

THINK ABOUT THAT. THE NOTION THAT ILLICIT OPERATORS ARE PAYING TAXES IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE BECAUSE YOU'RE REQUIRED TO HAVE A CERTIFICATE FROM THE STATE TO BE ALLOWED TO PAY THE TAX IN.

SO I JUST WANT TO MAKE THAT CLEAR.

THAT CAN'T HAPPEN.

SO THESE FOLKS ARE MAKING AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY, AND WITHOUT ANY REAL ACCOUNTABILITY, THERE'S NOTHING THAT WOULD MAKE THEM STOP.

IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER STATES LIKE COLORADO, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY TRIED THEIR BEST TO PUT THAT STUFF TO BED.

THEY SPENT AN OVERWHELMING PART OF THEIR BUDGET IN THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING TO FIX THOSE ISSUES, THEN THEY PROPAGATE A LEGAL MARKET AND THAT BECAME THE NORM IN THE STATE.

RIGHT NOW I THINK WE'VE KIND OF GOT THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE.

I THINK IF YOU NEED ACCOUNTABILITY, I GUESS WHAT I'M SAYING, IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO REINSTITUTE THE WAR ON DRUGS, YOU JUST HAVE TO OBEY THE RULE OF LAW.

IT'S A FAR DIFFERENT THING.

>> TURNING TO ANOTHER SIDE OF THE COMPETITIVE MARIJUANA MARKETPLACE, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT STATE REGULATORS PAVING THE WAY FOR LARGE MARIJUANA COMPANIES TO GET INTO THE RECREATIONAL SPACE BEFORE STATE LAW EVEN REQUIRED A PATHWAY INTO THE RETAIL MARKET?

>> I THINK THAT'S UNFORTUNATE AS WELL.

I THINK THE ORIGINAL PLAN WAS THE BEST PLAN, WHICH WAS THAT APPLICANTS THAT WERE ACTUALLY APPLICANTS OR PEOPLE THAT WERE IN EITHER DISABLED VETERANS OR MINORITY APPLICANTS, SO ON AND SO FORTH, THESE FOLKS NEEDED A THREE-YEAR RUNWAY TO KIND OF ESTABLISH THEIR BUSINESSES AND GET GOING.

WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH ALL THE LITIGATION THAT'S COME AGAINST THE STATE -- AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE -- IS THAT NOW THAT ROs ARE ENTERING THE MARKET, BUT WHAT WAS PRESCRIBED WAS A LONG RUNWAY TO HELP THESE FOLKS GET ESTABLISHED SO THEY COULD THEN COMPETE WITH BOX STORES AND FOLKS THAT WOULD BE VERTICALLY INTEGRATED.

>> FOR LISTENERS, THOUGH, THE ROs ARE REFERENCING THE MEDICAL ORGANIZATIONS, RIGHT?

>> I'M SO SORRY.

I'M SO SORRY. YES, SIR.

ROs WOULD BE LIKE MEDICAL, VERTICALLY INTEGRATED.

FOR ALL THOSE FOLKS OUT THERE, THAT MEANS THESE GUYS CAN GROW THEIR OWN PRODUCTS AND SELL THEM.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, THEY CAN BUY RECREATIONAL PRODUCTS FROM OUR LOCAL GROWERS AND PUT THEM ON THEIR SHELVES, WHICH COMPETES AGAINST REGULAR ADULT USE DISPENSARY STORES.

AND THEN EVENTUALLY OUR STORES WILL BE ABLE TO BUY PRODUCTS FROM THEM WHICH WOULD SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THE MODEST THINGS WE MIGHT BUY FROM NEW YORK FARMERS.

SO THESE ARE REALLY COMPLEX THINGS.

I DON'T WANT TO GET TOO HEAVY INTO THAT, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS, I THINK WE ALL EXPECT THAT MEDICAL HAS A PLACE IN THE MARKET.

THAT'S NOT A PROBLEM.

THAT'S FINE.

THE PROBLEM IS TIMING.

BY PLAN, NEW YORK STATE PLAN.

EVENTUALLY WE KNEW THEY WOULD ENTER THE MARKET, WE JUST THOUGHT THEY WOULD ENTER IN THREE YEARS.

IT HASN'T BEEN A YEAR.

AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE THINK IT'S NEEDED BECAUSE THE MARKET'S A LITTLE UPSIDE DOWN AND THERE'S NOT ENOUGH STORES OPEN.

BUT IT COULD BE A BIT OF A POISON PILL FOR SOME OF THE REASONS YOU STATED IN YOUR QUESTION.

AND YOU CAN SEE HOW IT COULD REALLY MAKE A REALLY LOPSIDED THING IN THE MARKET, MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES THAT MEDICAL FACILITIES HAVE RIGHT NOW.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

>> DAMIEN, WE'RE RUNNING SHORT ON TIME.

SO I'M CURIOUS, CAN YOU BRIEFLY SAY WHETHER YOU'RE OPTIMISTIC OR PESSIMISTIC ABOUT THE LIKELIHOOD OF STATE LAWMAKERS OR STATE REGULATORS RESPONDING TO THE CONCERNS THAT THEY HEARD AT THIS RECENT HEARING IN A MEANINGFUL AND PRODUCTIVE WAY?

>> I'M ALWAYS OPTIMISTIC IN EVERYTHING I DO IN LIFE.

SO I MEAN, WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THIS: EVERYONE HAS TO DO THE BEST THEY ABSOLUTELY CAN TO HELP THIS MARKET STAND.

AND WHEN YOU'RE UNSATISFIED, AS I AM, I GO TO THE HEARINGS.

I DO THE INTERVIEWS.

I TALK TO LAWMAKERS AS MUCH AS I CAN.

I WORK WITH CANY CLEARLY, AND WE DO ALL WE CAN TO WORK WITH THE STATE TO HELP THEM MAKE BETTER DECISIONS BASED UPON WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE GRASSROOTS.

THAT CAN BE THE PROBLEM WITH ANY INDUSTRY, RIGHT?

IT'S LIKE WE SEE THINGS IN THE GRASSROOTS THAT POLICYMAKERS DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO SEE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT IN IT EVERY DAY.

AND SO I'M STILL OPTIMISTIC BECAUSE THE MARKET IS SO YOUNG, THERE ARE ONLY 17 BRICK AND MORTAR STORES AND I THINK ANOTHER SEVEN DELIVERY OPERATIONS.

SO IT'S STILL VERY, VERY YOUNG.

THERE'S STILL A CHANCE TO CORRECT IT, RIGHT?

A LOT OF GAMES CAN BE WON IN THE LAST QUARTER, SHUCKS, THE LAST TWO MINUTES OF THE GAME, RIGHT?

>> UNFORTUNATELY WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, DAMIEN.

WE'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH DAMIEN CORNWELL, BOARD MEMBER OF THE CANNABIS ASSOCIATION OF NEW YORK AND OPERATOR OF THE JUST BREATHE DISPENSARY IN THE SOUTHERN TIER DAMIEN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND GOOD LUCK WITH THE OPTIMISM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

HAVE A GREAT DAY.

>> AND NEXT, IN LIGHT OF THE STATE'S OPIOID SETTLEMENT FUND ADVISORY BOARD RELEASING UPDATED RECOMMENDATIONS THIS WEEK ON HOW THE STATE SHOULD SPEND MONEY SECURED FROM OPIOID MANUFACTURERS AND DISTRIBUTORS WE'RE GOING TO PLAY TWO EXCERPTS FROM WMHT'S SPECIAL SERIES ON OPIOIDS IN NEW YORK.

UP FIRST, WE HAVE OUR LOOK BACK AT THE EMPIRE STATE'S POLICY RESPONSE TO OPIOID ADDICTION PROBLEM AND ILLEGAL OPIOID CONSUMPTION - WHICH FIRST ENTERED THE PUBLIC'S CONSCIOUSNESS MORE THAN 70 YEARS AGO, AND WAS FRAMED FOR DECADES THROUGH THE LENS OF CRIMINALITY, BEFORE GRADUALLY BECOMING ACCEPTED AS A PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEM, REQUIRING MEDICAL SOLUTIONS. HERE'S THAT STORY, FROM PROFESSOR, AUTHOR, AND DRUG HISTORIAN NANCY CAMPBELL. >> OPIOID CRISES ARE VERY OLD IN NEW YORK. THERE WAS A PARTICULAR PROBLEM RIGHT AFTER WORLD WAR II WITH HEROIN INJECTION.

GOVERNOR NELSON ROCKEFELLER IN THE EARLY 60S DECIDED THAT FEDERAL CRIMINALIZATION WAS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH.

SO HE DECIDED TO TRY TREATMENT.

NOW THAT TREATMENT WAS PUNITIVE.

IT WAS MANDATORY TREATMENT.

MOST TREATMENT PRIOR TO METHADONE MAINTENANCE, WHICH BEGAN IN NEW YORK IN 1965, WAS TALK THERAPY, ABSTINENCE-BASED.

STUFF WE KNOW DOES NOT REALLY WORK.

AND SO ALTHOUGH METHADONE MAINTENANCE BEGAN IN NEW YORK IN 1965, IT WAS NOT SCALED UP UNTIL ABOUT 10 YEARS LATER.

GOVERNOR NELSON ROCKEFELLER BECAME IMPATIENT WITH WHAT HE SAW AS THE FAILURE OF DRUG TREATMENT PRIOR TO THE 1970S.

HE DIDN'T REALLY GIVE METHADONE MAINTENANCE A CHANCE, AND HE DECIDED, IN 1973, TO DOUBLE DOWN ON CRIMINALIZATION.

HE DECIDED WE SHOULD LOCK PEOPLE UP.

AND IF WE TOOK PEOPLE OFF THE STREETS FOR POSSESSION AND TRAFFICKING, THEN WE WOULD NIP IT IN THE BUD.

THAT TURNED OUT NOT TO WORK, IN PART BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT ILLICIT DRUG SUPPLIERS RESPONDED.

IN MANY WAYS, THE ROCKEFELLER LAWS SPUR INNOVATION AMONG ILLICIT DRUG DEALERS AND SUPPLIERS.

MASS INCARCERATION DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

FAMILIES, PARTNERS, SPOUSES AND, OF COURSE, THE INCARCERATED INDIVIDUAL.

IN THE LATE 70S, OPIOID OVERDOSE DEATHS BEGAN TO TICK UP AT A RATE OF 9% A YEAR INTO THE PRESENT DAY.

IT BEGAN TO BECOME A PUBLIC PROBLEM.

IT HAD TO BE MADE A PUBLIC PROBLEM THE PEOPLE WHO MADE IT A PUBLIC PROBLEM ARE WHAT WE CALL HARM REDUCTIONISTS.

HARM REDUCTION IS PRACTICAL INTERVENTION, ANY POSITIVE CHANGE THAT YOU CAN MAKE IN A DRUG USER'S LIFE OR HEALTH.

IN NEW YORK CITY, HARM REDUCTION GREW OUT OF THE HIV/AIDS MOVEMENT IN THE 1980S.

IT DOESN'T CRIMINALIZE.

IT DOESN'T PUNISH.

IT WAS MEANT TO ADDRESS HEALTH AT A MUCH BROADER SOCIAL LEVEL.

SO TREATMENT AND HARM REDUCTION ARE THE MAIN WAYS THAT WE ARE GOING TO REDUCE OPIOID OVERDOSE DEATHS IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> AND FOR OUR SECOND EXCERPT FROM WMHT'S SPECIAL SERIES ON OPIOIDS IN NEW YORK, WE'RE GOING TO EXPLORE THE EVOLVING SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING OF OPIOID ADDICTION, WHICH HELPED DRIVE THE CHANGING ATTITUDES THE PUBLIC, MORE IMPORTANTLY PUBLIC OFFICIALS, HAVE ABOUT THE WAY TO ADDRESS ILLEGAL OPIOID USE HERE IN THE EMPIRE STATE.

TO UNDERSTAND HOW OPIOIDS WORK AND THE MEDICAL STEPS NECESSARY TO SUCCESSFUL TREAT AND RECOVER FROM OPIOID ADDICTION, WE SAT DOWN WITH NEUROPHARMACOLOGIST LAURA PURINGTON, WHO SERVES AS DIRECTOR OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL SCIENCES PROGRAM AT THE ALBANY COLLEGE OF PHARMACY AND HEALTH SCIENCES.

HERE'S THAT STORY FROM OUR SPECIAL SERIES.

>> OPIOIDS ARE A REALLY FASCINATING CLASS OF DRUGS BECAUSE THEY HAVE MULTIPLE EFFECTS ON THE BODY.

OPIOIDS CAN WORK TO HELP OUR BRAIN DIMINISH PAIN SIGNALS.

SO THERE ARE RECEPTORS THAT THESE OPIOIDS BIND TO WHICH ARE EXPRESSED THROUGHOUT THE SPINE CORD AND AN OPIOID ACTING AS A RECEPTOR IN THE SPINAL CORD CAN HELP SUPPRESS OR PREVENT PAINFUL STIMULI FROM REACHING THE BRAIN WE KNOW OPIOIDS ARE ALSO USED FOR RECREATIONAL PURPOSES FOR THE HIGH OR EUPHORIA THEY CAN PRODUCE.

AND THIS IS CAUSED BY OPIOIDS ACTING AT RECEPTORS WITHIN THE LIMBIC REGION OF THE BRAIN.

WE KNOW THAT OPIOIDS WORKING IN THIS LIMBIC REGION CAN CAUSE THE RELEASE OF ANOTHER NEUROTRANSMITTER CALLED DOPAMINE IN A REGION OF THE BRAIN CALLED NUCLEUS ACCUMBENS, AND THAT DOPAMINE RELEASE IS ASSOCIATED WITH FEELINGS OF REWARD, EUPHORIA AND PLEASURE.

OPIOIDS ARE A CLASS OF DRUGS THAT CAN PRODUCE WHAT'S CALLED TOLERANCE SO TOLERANCE IS AN ADAPTATION IN YOUR BODY WHERE YOU NEED TO TAKE AN INCREASED DOSE OF THE COMPOUND IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THE SAME EFFECT.

IF SOMEONE WAS USING MORPHINE OR ANOTHER OPIOID MEDICATION FOR PAIN RELIEF, OVER TIME, TAKING THE SAME AMOUNT OF DRUG, ACTUALLY LEADS TO LESS AND LESS PAIN RELIEVING EFFICACY.

SO THE PERSON WOULD HAVE TO INCREASE THEIR DOSE OVER TIME.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE FOUND HELPS TO PREDICT THE ABUSE LIABILITY OF A DRUG OR THE ABUSE OF POTENTIAL OF A DRUG IS HOW QUICKLY IT CAN REACH THE BRAIN TO CAUSE THAT RELEASE OF DOPAMINE IN THE NUCLEUS ACCUMBENS.

FENTANYL IS AN EXPERT AT REACHING THE BRAIN VERY QUICKLY AND CAUSING RELEASE OF DOPAMINE, AND THAT'S GOING TO CAUSE FENTANYL TO BE VERY, VERY REWARDING VERY QUICKLY.

SO IT'S AN EXPERIENCE THAT A DRUG USER WOULD WANT TO REPEAT.

AND WITH REPEATED USE, WE KNOW THAT THIS CAN FACILITATE THE TRANSITION BETWEEN MAYBE OCCASIONAL USE INTO THAT SUBSTANCE ABUSE ADDICTION PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR.

AND THERE'S YET ANOTHER AREA OF THE BRAIN THAT OPIOIDS WORK IN, AND THIS IS IN THE RESPIRATORY CENTERS IN YOUR BRAINSTEM, SO IN BETWEEN YOUR BRAIN AND SPINAL CORD.

THE CELLS IN YOUR BRAINSTEM ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR SETTING YOUR RESPIRATORY RATE.

SO THEY ARE THE ONES THAT TELL YOUR LUNGS, IT'S TIME TO INHALE NOW, OR YOU NEED TO INHALE MORE FREQUENTLY OR LESS FREQUENTLY.

OPIOID RECEPTORS, OPIOIDS AS A CLASS ARE INHIBITORY.

THEY'RE SUPPRESSIVE.

SO IF WE SUPPRESS THAT RESPIRATORY RATE, WHAT HAPPENS IS THE TIME BETWEEN INHALATIONS BECOMES LONGER AND LONGER AND CAN EVENTUALLY JUST STOP.

AND THIS CAN LEAD TO SOME OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF OPIOID OVERDOSE, INCLUDING OVERDOSE FATALITY.

WHERE WE STAND TODAY, WE KNOW SO MUCH MORE ABOUT OPIOIDS.

WE KNOW SO MUCH MORE ABOUT ADDICTION OR SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER.

CAN WE START TO PUT OUR EFFORT AND OUR TIME AND OUR RESOURCES MORE TOWARD ANALYZING THE DEMAND AND WHAT'S UNDERPINNING THAT DEMAND?

AND THAT'S GOING TO HELP US TO BETTER TREAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED TODAY IN THE PRESENT.

>> AND FOR MORE OF WMHT'S MULTI-PART SPECIAL SERIES ON OPIOIDS AND NEW YORK, VISIT WMHT.ORG.

AND THAT'S GONNA DO IT FOR THIS EPISODE OF NEW YORK NOW.

IF YOU MISSED ANY OF TODAY'S PROGRAM, WANT TO REVISIT PAST EPISODES, OR EXPLORE OUR WEB EXTRAS, CHECK OUT NYNOW.ORG. FROM ALL OF US AT WMHT, I'M DAVID LOMBARDO.

THANKS FOR WATCHING THIS WEEK'S EDITION OF NEW YORK NOW.

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New York NOW is a local public television program presented by WMHT